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Author Topic:   The historical Jesus didn't create a new religion!
Arphy
Member (Idle past 4451 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 8 of 21 (537778)
11-30-2009 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by andersbranderud
11-27-2009 4:08 PM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
There are many things one could say to this.
However here are some questions I would like to ask you. Are you really following the Torah? You don't have a temple, and you don't practice the commandments given in the Torah. Have you ever disobeyed the teachings in the Torah? Have you ever brought a sin offering? Have any of the Netzarim followers over the years ever brought sin offerings as required in the law? Have you followed all the cleansing laws? probably not. How will you ever be able to stand before God at the day of judgement? He is righteous and you are not. How can you see God and live? He is Holy and you are not.
Your arguments about the word "new" are completely off the mark. It doesn't say "renew" it says "new", in other words it is not the same as the old one.
Also note Matthew 5:17 Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by andersbranderud, posted 11-27-2009 4:08 PM andersbranderud has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by andersbranderud, posted 12-01-2009 5:06 PM Arphy has replied

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 4451 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 10 of 21 (537938)
12-02-2009 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by andersbranderud
12-01-2009 5:06 PM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
What does a "reconstruction" mean? What you think should have been written? Or what you think it might have said in the original?
Jesus isn't just a prophet.
Jesus didn't contradict the laws. He fulfilled them. He also supersedes the law because he is God.
The Creator does only require that humankind does their sincerest to keep Torah — He does not require us to do the impossible.
If God had wanted to he could have kept the temple standing, but he didn't, why? I don't think being sincere is enough. We are still in our sins. God is holy, we are not, we cannot be together. Throughout the old testament we see that innocent blood pays for the remission of sins. Does God contradict himself? Is blood not actually needed for forgiveness of sins? Then why did he institute it if it serves no purpose? Yes, God is gracious. But he is also holy.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
I think that generally the book of Hebrews would be a good book for you to read.
btw, what does Deuteronomy have to do with this? You are just randomly taking a swipe at the doctrine of the trinity.
So you mean that the Creator would contradict His own Torah — making Himself a false prophet according to Devarim 13:1-6, by instituting a berit (covenant) contradicting Torah?
How does it contradict? Anyway, they are not simultaneous. one comes after the other. So yes it supersedes the old covenant. Why? Because Jesus fulfilled the old covenant. A new covenant was needed to reflect this. Yes, this covenant is not fully revealed in the old testament but it is there (Again read Hebrews, and stephen's speech in Acts). Also another question for you, who is Messiah? Why is he the Messiah? What is he supposed to do?
I agree with you that God is outside of time. Hence also why Jesus said
Joh 14:6 "I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
That is everybody who comes to the Father comes through Jesus, whether past, present, or future. So yes, faith is credited as righteousness, as great people of the bible held to the hope to come. However, innocent blood is still needed. Jesus, paid that price.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by andersbranderud, posted 12-01-2009 5:06 PM andersbranderud has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 12-02-2009 3:05 AM Arphy has not replied
 Message 13 by andersbranderud, posted 12-04-2009 2:16 PM Arphy has replied

  
Arphy
Member (Idle past 4451 days)
Posts: 185
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-23-2009


Message 17 of 21 (538363)
12-06-2009 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by andersbranderud
12-04-2009 2:16 PM


Re: Purpose of the Creator
Hi Anders
I think you may have dug a bit of a hole here.
First you said the sacrifice is not necessary for salvation and then you point me to Isiah 53. If Yehoshua is the messiah then according to Isiah 53 he became a sacrifice for our sins. If sacrifices are not necessary the messiah becomes useless. In other words, he was killed in vain. He achieved nothing, because according to you all that God requires is to try and follow the torah. Here is another question: If we had a temple today would you go and sacrifice sin offerings or not?
btw, what does Devarim 6:4 have to do with sincerity? Here is the verse in my bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD;"
somehow i am missing your point.
Also while we are at it, from your website:
The only Scripture that Ribi Yehoshua and his original Netzarim (corrupted to 'Nazarene') Jews knew and taught was the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), from which the "Old Testament" (begging the question of displacement) Original Testament (OT) was Christianized. All of his teachings were based in the Tanakh and he never taught anything contrary to it. Look up the following examples in any world-recognized encyclopedia:
NT wasn't even written until 4 centuries after the death of Ribi Yehoshua. (The few fragments of Greek papyri from the 3rd century were likely either Roman Hellenist paraphrases from Hebrew Matityahu or Roman Hellenist syncretisms.) Even then, only the Roman Hellenists, who had separated from the original Jewish followers by 135 C.E., accepted them.
oh dear! It is quite clear that the NT was written in the 1st century for reasons we can go into if you want.
There are thousands of redactions in the earliest extant source manuscripts of NT.
Really? Could they expand on what the mean please?
Christmas wasn't celebrated until 5 centuries after the death of Ribi Yehoshua and then it was syncretized from the birthday of the Roman sun-god by the Roman Hellenists who had separated from the original Jewish followers by 135 C.E.
ummm...so what? What does this have to do with the authenticity of the NT?
Easter wasn't celebrated until several centuries after the death of Ribi Yehoshua and then it was syncretized from the festival for the pagan goddess I*sh*t*a*r / A*sh*t*o*r*e*th by the Roman Hellenists who had separated from the original Jewish followers by 135 C.E.
Again, so what?
Sunday wasn't celebrated until several centuries after the death of Ribi Yehoshua and then it was syncretized from the day dedicated to the sun-god by the Roman Hellenists who had separated from the original Jewish followers by 135 C.E.
And again, so what?
Is that all you have? This doesn't look good for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by andersbranderud, posted 12-04-2009 2:16 PM andersbranderud has not replied

  
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