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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 46 of 479 (538129)
12-04-2009 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
12-03-2009 9:23 PM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
Peter here says that he was an eyewitness to the 'power and presence' of the Lord and to the 'glory and magnificence' that he received from God.
Can you remember when and where else this happened?
Amen, if you are a brother in Christ, to what Peter testifies to in these verses and you may be correct that it is indirectly related to the Kingdom, as a part of his kingship overall. But no mention by Peter of the kingdom directly in these instances. Possibly, if it had such a meaning in that instance (the transfiguration)and this is what Christ was refering to directly in Matthew, he would have related the two in his comments.
Remember this confirmation also happened at his baptism, maybe not in such a dramatic fashion, distinquishing himself from the law and the prohets, but the words were basically the same from the Father.
The is no doubt that the church is the kingdom, so to argue excally when the kingdom was established may run into a bit of semantics. Some like ICANT will see it way before Pentecost, others will see it offically at that time, even others yet in the future, but thats another topic.
Its simply to symbiotic in nature to make such sharp distinctions. Even if one can find timelines so to speak, here and there the subject matter and character of purpose outweigh any such considerations. Atleast that is how I see it, you may have a different opinion
is there any particular reason why you doubt the transfiguration could be the fulfillment of Jesus words?
Not at all. but then so may other illustrations in his life could be considered the fullfillment of this prophecy. The resurrection and his being seen of 500 people would come to my mind. Angels actually confirmed and aided in that instance. What do you think?
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 12-03-2009 9:23 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 12-04-2009 1:26 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 47 of 479 (538131)
12-04-2009 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dawn Bertot
12-04-2009 1:05 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
EMA writes:
But no mention by Peter of the kingdom directly in these instances Possibly, if it had such a meaning in that instance (the transfiguration)and this is what Christ was refering to directly in Matthew, he would have related the two in his comments.
he does directly mention the kingdom in vs 11 of 2 Peter chpt 1.
The letter he wrote was to christians, he instructed them to supply virtue to their faith because if they do they will be assured of "entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." and then he goes on to remind them that their faith on this kingdom is not based on "artfully contrived false stories" but rather on the testimony of Peter who had " become eyewitnesses of his magnificence" when they were "with him in the holy mountain"
so Peters words in no way indicate that it was Jesus baptism he was discussing. Jesus was not baptised in the 'mountain' but in the jordan river. Besides that, the only eyewitness to Jesus baptism was John the baptist.
EMA writes:
The is no doubt that the church is the kingdom
if the church is the kingdom, then we are in trouble lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-04-2009 1:05 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-04-2009 9:07 AM Peg has replied
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 12-04-2009 10:16 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 48 of 479 (538158)
12-04-2009 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Peg
12-04-2009 1:26 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
so Peters words in no way indicate that it was Jesus baptism he was discussing. Jesus was not baptised in the 'mountain' but in the jordan river. Besides that, the only eyewitness to Jesus baptism was John the baptist
No No Peg, I was not indicating that his baptism was what he was referncing, only to indicate that so many times and instances in his lifetime his Messiahship and kingship could be refernced to fulfill his words in the OP passage.
Further to indicate that if the transfiguration could be removed as a candidate, then so many others, could be cited as a fulfillment, espcially that of of Matt 16 and Acts chapter 2. the kingdom parables are a very good indication that the kingdom was an earthly as well heavenly fulfillment. The words of the parables place the setting of the kingdom in both places at the sametime. Certainly for some the now the heavenly kingdom is now a reality and for us that have not passed on it is a reality here on earth.
"He has translated us out of the power of darkness, into the kingdom of his dear son" Present tense.
he does directly mention the kingdom in vs 11 of 2 Peter chpt 1.
Certainly there is a sense in which the kingdom is eternal or everlasting in character and there is very much a sense in which it was temporal, so the prophecy was fulfilled in a literal way.
Example, if Peter did not use figurative keys on pentecost to show entrance to the new system or kingdom, what were the keys that he used? I think it is to easy to miss the refernce in Matt 16 along with the interchangaable verbage. Both this example and the mount may have some significance to his kingship and kingdom. Not to mention and certainly not least, the resurrection itself.
if the church is the kingdom, then we are in trouble lol
Why prey tell would the body of Christ be a place of trouble?
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 12-04-2009 1:26 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 12-04-2009 10:25 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 53 by Peg, posted 12-04-2009 8:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 49 of 479 (538165)
12-04-2009 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Peg
12-04-2009 1:26 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
The letter he wrote was to christians, he instructed them to supply virtue to their faith because if they do they will be assured of "entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Peg do you have any idea what the Greek word basileia means?
That is the word translated kingdom in 2Peter 1:11
Peter writes:
1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Kingdom is translated from the Greek word basileia which means:
1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
So Peter is talking about the authority of Jesus.
He is not talking about a physical kingdom that has not transpired yet.
Jesus will sit physically on a throne in Jerusalem one day and rule the entire world for a period of time lasting at least 1000 years in a physical kingdom.
He presently rules over the universe as He always has.
At the present Satan is the prince and power of the air on earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Peg, posted 12-04-2009 1:26 AM Peg has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 50 of 479 (538166)
12-04-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dawn Bertot
12-04-2009 9:07 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
Hi EMA,
EMA writes:
Example, if Peter did not use figurative keys on pentecost to show entrance to the new system or kingdom, what were the keys that he used?
The same set of keys Abraham used. Abraham believed God.
Faith, total absolute trust in Jesus Christ as Savior.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-04-2009 9:07 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-04-2009 11:01 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 51 of 479 (538178)
12-04-2009 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
12-04-2009 10:25 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
The same set of keys Abraham used. Abraham believed God.
Faith, total absolute trust in Jesus Christ as Savior.
Your a funny guy ICANT. But remember that day he had many more words after they believed, dont you remember? abrahams actions in obedience to God are what made his belief acceptable, it was not simply a mental exercise
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 52 of 479 (538193)
12-04-2009 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Peg
11-30-2009 10:29 PM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
do you think the worlds governments and mobstars and multinational corporations are going to let this happen?
Well some will, but is not a matter of world governments "allowing it". The Kingdom of God has a different kind of power which cannot be defeated by the sword. They really can't do anything to stop it or to overtly encourage it. Christians get into trouble when they think that the tools of governments (i.e., the sword) can be used to bring about the Kingdom of God. Jesus specifically says that this is not the way it works (John 18:36). In fact, persecution tends to expand the Kingdom of God and overt governmental support tends to diminish it.
and do you think that the whole world are going to be converted to the kingdom of God???
No but I do believe that governments can be persuaded that the best course of action is to allow freedom of religion - which in the long run will expand the Kingdom of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Peg, posted 11-30-2009 10:29 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 53 of 479 (538249)
12-04-2009 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dawn Bertot
12-04-2009 9:07 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
EMA writes:
Why prey tell would the body of Christ be a place of trouble
which church are we refering to here? There are thousands of different denominations, so is the kingdom associated with all of them or just one of them?
And if God is going to use one of these church's, it would have to be above reproach with regard to how it administers christianity. For instance, it would have to be morally clean for a start. It would also have to imitate the christianity that Christ established in the first century.
It would have to be clean of all false religious doctrines, philosphical ideas, political affiliation, money making rackets etc etc etc
Do you think its possible that a perfect Kingdom of God could ever be adequately administered by imperfect humans???
Personally, I dont, and for this reason i dont think the kingdom of God could be administered by any church, including my own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-04-2009 9:07 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-05-2009 10:23 AM Peg has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 54 of 479 (538298)
12-05-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Peg
12-04-2009 8:45 PM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
which church are we refering to here? There are thousands of different denominations, so is the kingdom associated with all of them or just one of them?
Christs Church, the perfect body MADE perfect in Christ. We are made perfect in Christ Jesus before God
And if God is going to use one of these church's, it would have to be above reproach with regard to how it administers christianity. For instance, it would have to be morally clean for a start. It would also have to imitate the christianity that Christ established in the first century.
It would have to be clean of all false religious doctrines, philosphical ideas, political affiliation, money making rackets etc etc etc
Do you think its possible that a perfect Kingdom of God could ever be adequately administered by imperfect humans???
Yes, I will explain
Personally, I dont, and for this reason i dont think the kingdom of God could be administered by any church, including my own.
You thinking in human terms Peg. The kingdom of God can be minitered by the body of Christ (Church) if Christ is the sustainer and minister. We are made perfect in Christ but we all still allowed to make all the mistakes above mentioned by yourself. Yes we are required to strive for maturity and avoid these things mentioned by yourself, but the Church is still perfect in and throught the blood of Christ.
"He is both the just and the jutifier" Romans 3.
Watch these words from the Apostle John
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touchedthis we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our (a) joy complete.
Walking in the light
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all (b) sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Its not a license to sin (Romans 6) but it is a perfect system made and continued perfect in Christ
A perfect HUMAN system is not required for the Church to be perfect or it to be or not be the kingdom of God on earth. It is both perfect and the kingdom on earth now, through Christ Jesus and his blood
"He has translated us out of the power of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son" Col 1:13
If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have FELLOWSHIP one with another AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CLEANSESS US FROM ALL SIN
Christ's Chruch (kingdom) will be perfect regardless of my stupidity, because it is not dependent upon my ignorance and weakness but Christs sacrifice and his sustaining blood
You limit the blood and purpose of Christs Church and kingdom Peg
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Fix quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Peg, posted 12-04-2009 8:45 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Peg, posted 12-06-2009 5:51 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 63 by AdminPD, posted 12-07-2009 2:48 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Statman
Junior Member (Idle past 5037 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 12-06-2009


Message 55 of 479 (538358)
12-06-2009 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Calypsis4
10-13-2009 9:55 AM


Calypsis says:
"It was fulfilled, in part, in the experience of the apostle John who saw the kingdom come in Revelation. Some of the other disciples got a glimpse of it also. Check out Pauls words in II Corinthians 12:2. The 'man in Christ above 14 years ago' was actually himself. But even if one doesn't take that as Paul himself, whoever it was saw the kingdom."
Stat: This kind of response seems to be endemic among believers. Here he equates a vision, dream or hallucination with actual seeing of an event. So if I dream about Caesar crossing the Rubicon, I have SEEN him cross it? Not even close!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Calypsis4, posted 10-13-2009 9:55 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

  
Statman
Junior Member (Idle past 5037 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 12-06-2009


Message 56 of 479 (538361)
12-06-2009 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peepul
10-12-2009 1:29 PM


False prophecy of Tyre
Peeple,
It certainly IS a challenge and one I've never seen a believer give a good response to. Here's another. In Ezekiel 26, it says that when Tyre is destroyed it will never be rebuilt. And I was taught in parochial school exactly that - that it was never rebuilt. The teachers and preachers were parroting what they'd heard and never bothered to check out the facts.
In reading history, I found that it had been rebuilt multiple times. Then I read the Lebanese tourist site and found it was a thriving city. Finally, (somewhat later), I got on Google Maps and looked at it from the satellite view. Sure enough, the island, the causeway and the mainland are covered with a thriving city!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peepul, posted 10-12-2009 1:29 PM Peepul has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by deerbreh, posted 12-07-2009 2:30 PM Statman has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 57 of 479 (538370)
12-06-2009 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dawn Bertot
12-05-2009 10:23 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
EMA writes:
Christs Church, the perfect body MADE perfect in Christ. We are made perfect in Christ Jesus before God
which one is christs church? is it the church of England, or the catholics, or the united church, or the lutherans, or the greek orthodox, or the roman orthodox, or the roman catholic, or the protestants....
You are speaking about the 'church of christ' and Im asking you which church you would point to as the one who is 'christs church'?
Also, when you speak about 'the body of christ' are you talking about 'all' christians, or a particular group of christians? I ask this because the NT speaks a lot about the 'body of christ' and my understanding is that it is in regard to the 'annointed' christians only. But you may have something else in mind.
before i reply to the rest of your post, i just want to understand what you are specifically refering to

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-05-2009 10:23 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by deerbreh, posted 12-06-2009 6:06 PM Peg has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 58 of 479 (538425)
12-06-2009 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Peg
12-06-2009 5:51 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
which one is christs church? is it the church of England, or the catholics, or the united church, or the lutherans, or the greek orthodox, or the roman orthodox, or the roman catholic, or the protestants....
As EMA noted, you are thinking in human terms. There is only one church. Humans have created many denominations but there is only one body of Christ. There are individuals in all denominations and even some not a member of any formal denomination who are part of the body of Christ. Humans divide, Christ unites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Peg, posted 12-06-2009 5:51 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 12-07-2009 1:41 AM deerbreh has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 59 of 479 (538438)
12-07-2009 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by deerbreh
12-06-2009 6:06 PM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
deerbreh writes:
As EMA noted, you are thinking in human terms. There is only one church. Humans have created many denominations but there is only one body of Christ. There are individuals in all denominations and even some not a member of any formal denomination who are part of the body of Christ. Humans divide, Christ unites.
there was only one church in Jesus day too and he was very clear that, following the wrong religion could be detrimental
Matthew 23:13Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in.
15Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge‧hen′na twice as much so as yourselves.
According to Jesus, there was only one avenue to God and salvation. If a christian church fails to teach people all the requirements set our by Jesus, then they are not going to help anyone
perhaps i should ask you why you think Jesus made such a dramatic statement?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by deerbreh, posted 12-06-2009 6:06 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by deerbreh, posted 12-07-2009 1:39 PM Peg has replied
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 12-07-2009 2:20 PM Peg has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2893 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 60 of 479 (538482)
12-07-2009 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Peg
12-07-2009 1:41 AM


Re: Inerrancy question or interpretation question?
Well you keep missing the point I and EMA are making. I don't see any point in repeating so I will say it a different way and leave it go at that... God looks on the heart, humans look at outward things so why don't you let God be the judge of who might be in and who might be out if that is a concern for you? As for me, I am too busy making sure I am doing the Lord's work to be keeping score on others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 12-07-2009 1:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 12-07-2009 5:56 PM deerbreh has replied

  
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