Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)

I've simulate the evolution of strategies for the Iterated Prisoners' Dilemma on my computer. The gene pool converges rapidly on Tit-For-Tat style strategies.

You've probably already read it, but I'll point you towards the more generic dealing-with-death post I made earlier in this thread - Message 30In a more specific (and hopefully helpful) sense: Would "in a better place" be similar to "being at peace"? Or something like that? I would imagine that there is nothing more peaceful than non-existance itself...As long as we exist in a reality worthy of intelligence, worries are a necessary aspect. The only way to be at absolute peace, would be to have absolutely no worries... you'd have to remove intelligence, or remove existance.So, on some levels, perhaps non-existance (if that is what actually awaits us) is "a better place" than living in our reality. A tricky subject. Again, I'll have to add the obligatory *I do not have kids* disclaimer.Are you worried about you? Or about your kids? The fact that you find it easier to tell them one thing over another may not have any connection with the fact of how they will receive your advice.That is, telling them they are in heaven may illicit more questions and unknowns and worries for them.Telling them that they are gone would give them an ending.Obviously, with your upbringing/education/background, talking about heaven is easier for you. Can we say which would be easier for your children? I cannot. You would have a better guess. I can say, though, that your children do not have the same upbringing/education/background that you do (or maybe they do? ..again, you would know this better than I).So again the questions are do you care about making this easier for your kids? Or for yourself?I cannot say that telling your kids about natural-death would be easier for them... I'm only asking these questions to make sure you and I are both on the same page here.Do you want your kids to have thoughts of dead pets in heaven? This would seem to provide instant caring for their emotional wounds, yet leave the door open for long-term potential harm whenever (ifever?) they discover "what all evidence we have points to happening."Telling them that death is a natural ending point may cause a bit more immediate grief. Again, your kids, your choice.I suppose that should wrap up talking a lot and not giving you any solid advice to follow. My work here is done

Modulous (& Jumped up),It is refreshing to see civil responses and some knowledge of what I'm talking about. The Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma tournament was an extremely simplistic situation. You may already have considered how real life interactions differ but I'll suggest some:In real life:
1. Entities can pass information and advice to other entities about those who renege.
2. Entities can avoid interaction with those who renege. Conversely, they can deal only with those who cooperate.
3. Entities can de-escalate (or escalate) the ‘punishment’ to those who renege.
4. Entities can use 3rd parties to hold assets in escrow.
5. Entities can form coalitions with other cooperators to shun/ban or even destroy those who renege as well as force them to make restitution..
6. (Add your own)It seems to me that biological evolution only had a small part to play in the development of ethics/morality. That cultural evolution had a vastly larger role.The development of law is closely related to that of ethics/morality. John Maxcy Zane was the greatest historian of law at one time and his book The Story of Law was fascinating. Consider that first world nations no longer condone blood feuds, no longer kill a builders son if a house falls on the customer’s son and kills him (Hammurabi‘s law?), do not condone ’honor killings’, do not recognize trial by ordeal, do not condone dueling, do not permit slavery or gladiatorial combat, frown on torture, do not permit the subjugation of women, allow women to own property and vote and divorce, do not execute ’witches’ or heretics/blasphemers/atheists. The list goes on and on.

Good point. It's just a matter of rewiring my brain. Also good points. All of which I will take into consideration. Thanks.

I don't know if this is the type of answer you are looking for, but the biggest problem for me has been conflict with believing loved ones, especially my wife. She truly believes that I am going to hell, and that is a source of pain for her. We've reached the point where we don't talk about it much, so I'm not sure how often she thinks about it, but just about every Sunday in church the pastor brings up the "fact" that non-believers are destined for eternal punishment.It has occurred to me to pretend to be a christian for her sake, but I don't think I could pull it off. I do wonder, though, if (hopefully) years from now if I am lying in my death bed and she is at my side, if the most loving thing to do would be to fake a conversion.

Actually, I meant this to be more of an area where theists (perhaps those more fundamentally inclined) could list the problems/issues they think would come with Atheism. Things like "you don't have a moral foundation" or "it is not possible to love while being an atheist"... you know, easy things to answer and show objective facts to the contrary.It appears, however, that no theists have issues with atheism and this has turned into more of a Dear Abby column I don't mind, though. All the questions brought up (including yours) are very important, large and real questions that everyone must face. This can be a place for atheists to discuss answers or maybe even just areas of solace for the hardest problems they face.I do admit that the questions coming from the atheists (again, including yours) are the hardest to answer, and some just plain may not have answers.Of course, the easy cop-out answer is the "if it's so important to you, you should leave her" answer. But, well, obviously you're past thinking about those such things or you wouldn't be here with the problem.So, on to the harder, longer "actually attempting to deal with the issue" answer I guarantee you, with as much ability as I have to read minds, that your wife thinks about you each time this is said as well. People who love each other care about one another. If your wife loves you, then she will care about you and what she believes is your eternal soul. There are unselfish reasons for her to do so (she can be worried about you) and selfish reasons as well (she may not want to "be alone" in heaven... or "without you.") All of those reasons are valid to create fear and worry in her heart.The way I see it, you have 3 paths to follow at varying degrees:Path 1 - Neutrality. Along the lines of "reaching the point where you don't talk about it much." Leave well enough alone. This will reduce any arguements or heated discussions, but you can't expect the issue to make any progress (one way or the other) while it is on this path. However, this path will likely be a necessary "rest stop" for the discussion when it reaches inevitable "hot points." You'll have to judge when and where to best use this time. (I do not envy the decisions you have in your future).Path 2 - Your Sake. Anything and everything that would lean her towards being okay with your Atheism. Although I do not recommend talking over large gaps. By "large gaps" I mean talking to her about atheism while she is still a very devoted Christian. A better approach would be to discuss things over much smaller gaps. Getting her to lean towards your thoughts about deism is still leaning towards your thoughts about atheism... just a much smaller step. Perhaps one she would find easier to discuss (and maybe even accept). The touchier she is to these discussions, the smaller the gaps will have to be for any progress to be made.Path 3 - Her Sake. Anything and everything that would lean you towards accepting Christianity. Again, if loving your wife is more important to you than personal theology... there is nothing wrong with converting for your wife. Don't let anyone tell you that such a thing is "living for someone else" or "not respecting yourself." Your priorities are yours alone to sort out for yourself. If you prioritize your personal relationship with your wife over your personal theology then that certainly is valid, and it is respecting yourself and it is not living for someone else. My only advice here is to make sure you're honest with yourself. Be honest with yourself about your own personal priorities.Overall - Take things easy.Don't talk about how when you die you think there is nothing.
Talk about how when you die you're not sure what will happen.Don't talk about how there is no objective, absolute moral system that anyone can point to.
Talk about how interesting it is that so many different people see things so differently.Don't talk about how there is no evidence that God exists.
Talk about how you have yet to be touched by God (as far as you know).I'm not sure if this is true with you, but it is true with me and I talk about it when I'm looking for common ground with believers I try to stress tentativity. When you talk about tentativity, it makes it sound more approachable and agnostic-like, which is more appealing (and less insulting) to those who do believe:People call me an atheist, and I call myself an atheist for simplicity's sake. But it's not so much that I don't believe in God. It's more that I don't believe in any specific God. If someone proposes Vishnu, I don't believe in that God. If someone proposes the Christian Bible God, I don't believe in that God. If someone proposes "a vague unknown entity"... I don't believe there's much point in believing in something that is vague and unknown. But to definitively answer the question "is there something??" the answer must be "I don't really know" because even the strictist of scientists must include some level of tentativity. So I live, and act, and run my life as if I'm an atheist, but I cannot say "for sure" that there is no God. How could I? How could anyone? None of us knows everything. It's just that with the knowledge I have, and the things I've seen... I don't think there's a God. That's what I mean when I say I don't believe. Not that I know there is no God... such knowledge is impossible... I don't believe in God is just my way of saying "I don't believe in your God, and I haven't been made aware of any personal God for myself." Obviously "I'm an atheist" is a lot simpler and gets the point across faster. I don't know. Maybe. You'll have to judge (of course). My thoughts against this would be that your wife loves you. Not a fake you, or even a faking-it-for-her-sake you. What if you do this, and you don't pull it off "just right" and she's left here thinking "Did he really mean that? If so, why didn't he say so sooner? If not, why would he lie to me when he knows I love and respect him for his honesty?" Just seems like a lot of things could go wrong. But, again, your wife, your life.Now that my easy part of writing a few words is over, I shall bid you good luck and send you on your way to, you know, actually deal with the difficult problem.

Seems like you might make a good advice columnist; at least the advice you give here seems reasonable; it's more or less how I've been handling the situation for a while now. I think it's the least bad approach.However, I do have to criticize this: Jeez, I was hoping for you to offer a fool proof air tight solution. A theist would have, you know...

So does Nike: Just Do It.

Hi Dr A, One of the things that intrigues me, is the question of morals from the perspective of another species. If some moral precepts are derived from evolution (and then "explained" by moral codes), then it follows that different species with different social patterns would have evolved different moral precepts.Compare a tiger to a human. The tiger rarely interacts with other tigers except during breeding (damn hormones) and do not share in raising offspring. Similar bears, which are omnivores rather than obligate carnivores, similar to humans in other respects.It seems to me that attitudes towards rape, murder, forced abortion, infanticide, theft, etc, would be different from the perspective of a species where sharing is not the norm.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : theft

---

quote:

---

It has occurred to me to pretend to be a christian for her sake, but I don't think I could pull it off. I do wonder, though, if (hopefully) years from now if I am lying in my death bed and she is at my side, if the most loving thing to do would be to fake a conversion.

---

Hey, at least in Protestant Christianity there aren't really any rituals you have to perform on a daily basis or costumes to wear. You don't even have to go to church. Of course, you could remind her of 1 Corinthians 7:14 That doesn't make you "saved", but maybe she can be happy she has you halfway there. I agree with Stiles about taking it easy. Good luck.

---

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

An interesting point. The female preying mantis eats her mate during sex. Do we think her wicked for doing so?But humans are the ultimate eusocial species.

Thanks. I am not familiar with 1 Corinthians 7:14; I'll have to look into it. Like, what is "sanctified" supposed to mean here?

quote:

---

Thanks. I am not familiar with 1 Corinthians 7:14; I'll have to look into it. Like, what is "sanctified" supposed to mean here?

---

Sanctified means to be made holy. IOW, separated for God's use. So while you aren't "saved", meaning you believe in Jesus; you are not lumped in with the "unclean". Arguments have been made that each person will be judged by their actions regardless of what they believe. So if your actions are righteous in your time, you will fare well on "judgment day".Since you have a believer as your wife, she should be influencing you to behave in a righteous manner even though you don't believe in Jesus.If she's a fundamentalist, this probably won't fly; but I think a case could be made that you would probably be fine on judgment day. You just have to work harder since your spot isn't "guaranteed".That may have the makings of a discussion topic. I'll have to work on that.Hopefully I haven't made this any muddier.

---

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

I think you've just moved the mud around, but I thank you for the attempt.

I once knew a girl like that. And I thought she was very very bad.Who am I kidding?