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Author Topic:   Adding information to the genome.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 256 of 280 (538695)
12-09-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Kaichos Man
12-09-2009 7:55 AM


Re: I call!
Hi Kaichos Man,
You're making several errors.
As we keep telling you, you're misinterpreting most of your Kimura quotes. You can't provide quotes you've misinterpreted to support your position because they don't mean what you think they mean.
Natural selection is not a source of variation. All biologists, including Kimura, understand that natural selection is not a source of variation. Kimura could not differ with other biologists about this because they all agree. Dawkins understands this too, and so there is no "dawkins-weasel-style building of variation through natural selection." No biologist believes or has ever believed that natural selection is a source of variation. Not Darwin. Not Huxley. Not Haldane. Not Haeckel. Not Gould. Not Dawkins. Not Kimura.
Kimura did not deny a role for natural selection. He merely wanted to add another player onto the stage of evolution. You're appear to not even be reading your own quotes:
Kaichos Man quoting Kimura writes:
"I think chance plays a much greater part in evolution, and natural selection a lesser part, than biologists supposed a few years ago."(BBC documentary transcript)
See where it says "natural selection a lesser part"? Do you understand what "lesser part" means? Do you understand that it doesn't mean "no part at all?"
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Kaichos Man, posted 12-09-2009 7:55 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 257 of 280 (538697)
12-09-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Kaichos Man
12-09-2009 8:04 AM


Re: no
Careful now, they are pulling out all stops with the "go read a text book" and "you don't know what you are talking about" arguments.
17 pages, 250+ posts and has anyone even come close to trying to actually answer your question by providing good clarification of how information can be significantly increased in the genome? Even clarification of anything would be a start. Admittedly I haven't read every single post, but I think any reasonable man of medium patience and tolerance can only stand reading so much diffusion and obfuscating.
Anytime you can get multiple posts from Dr.A inserting his template distractions, you must be doing something right.
I admire your perseverance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Kaichos Man, posted 12-09-2009 8:04 AM Kaichos Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Huntard, posted 12-09-2009 9:14 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 261 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 9:53 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 262 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-09-2009 10:30 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 258 of 280 (538699)
12-09-2009 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 8:51 AM


Re: no
I find it very funny and ironic that you are the one complaining about obfuscation. I remember a certain thread where only after about 100 posts or so it became clear you actually wanted to talk about something different then what you had asked in your OP.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 8:51 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 9:22 AM Huntard has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 259 of 280 (538700)
12-09-2009 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Huntard
12-09-2009 9:14 AM


Re: no
I find it very impressive that after 100 posts something could become clear to you....that's sounds premature for you.
Care to explain how YOU believe new information can be added to the genome, or did you just come here to moan?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Huntard, posted 12-09-2009 9:14 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Huntard, posted 12-09-2009 9:37 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 260 of 280 (538702)
12-09-2009 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 9:22 AM


Re: no
Bolder-dash writes:
Care to explain how YOU believe new information can be added to the genome, or did you just come here to moan?
I can tell what the current knowledge about how variation enters the genome is. That is that it is due to mutations.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 9:22 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 261 of 280 (538703)
12-09-2009 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 8:51 AM


Re: no
Hi Bolder-dash,
If you'd like to discuss the topic then please join us, by all means, but if you only have meta comments then could you please take them to the Peanut Gallery? Thanks.
About how information can be added to the genome, gene duplication is the one most recently mentioned. If you have questions just ask.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 8:51 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 10:37 AM Percy has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 262 of 280 (538707)
12-09-2009 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 8:51 AM


Re: no
Careful now, they are pulling out all stops with the "go read a text book" and "you don't know what you are talking about" arguments.
Has it not occurred to you that we're ... right? That he is in fact making half-assed blunders which he could avoid by making the effort to find out what he's talking about?
Anyone who can write gibberish like this:
No careful, credible, step-by-step, dawkins-weasel-style building of variation through natural selection. Kimura understood that that was impossible. Selection needs something to select, and that had to be generated by a stochastic process. Duplicate genes cobbled into something useful by drift alone. Pure chance. The hopeful monster.
... does indeed need to go back to basics and find out what he's taking about.
17 pages, 250+ posts and has anyone even come close to trying to actually answer your question by providing good clarification of how information can be significantly increased in the genome?
Yes.
Anytime you can get multiple posts from Dr.A inserting his template distractions, you must be doing something right.
"Template distractions"? You mean like providing him with a link to the scientific literature reporting an observation of gene duplication being favored by natural selection, as I did in my last post?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 8:51 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 263 of 280 (538708)
12-09-2009 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Percy
12-09-2009 9:53 AM


Re: no
You mean I can join the discussion in the manner of Dr.A? Like I can just say, "When I read gibberish like this, I thoroughly understand why thinking people believe all evolutionists are stupid and wrong."
post#39
Is that how I should contribute?
Edited by Bolder-dash, : edited to demonstrate the inconsistent application of your standards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 9:53 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 10:58 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 268 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-09-2009 11:49 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 264 of 280 (538710)
12-09-2009 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 10:37 AM


Re: no
Hi Bolder-dash,
Again, if you'd like to discuss the topic then please join us, by all means. Meta comments about the discussion should be taken to the Peanut Gallery. Reports of problems in discussion threads should be taken to Report discussion problems here: No.2.
I can remove your posting privileges for this forum if need be.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 10:37 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 11:05 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 266 by traderdrew, posted 12-09-2009 11:19 AM Percy has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 265 of 280 (538714)
12-09-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Percy
12-09-2009 10:58 AM


Re: no
Percy,
If you are going to be the moderator in a thread where you are not even the moderator, perhaps you could at least do so in a fair and unbiased manner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 10:58 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 266 of 280 (538716)
12-09-2009 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Percy
12-09-2009 10:58 AM


Re: no
I can remove your posting privileges for this forum if need be.
Percy,
I don't think his comment warranted the threat of removing his posting privileges. But now since I have put myself into the mix here....
How about HGT (horizontal gene transfers) between organisms? This seems to be something that I could explore further. Huntard believes one type of mutation called frameshift mutations can add information to the genome.
Some of you might be wondering which side I am on. I am on the intelligent design side. There is that issue of coherence. I also ask, how much of these theoretical evolutionary advancements are happening in labs across the world? There is that issue of shedding unnecessary information out of organisms.
Whether Darwinism is true on a grand scale or not, I don't think there was a steady linear increase of information in the genome since some 3.5 billion years ago. The world shouts chaos to me. The Cambrian explosion was an example of a rapid increase of information for new phyla.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 10:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Wounded King, posted 12-09-2009 11:38 AM traderdrew has replied
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 12-09-2009 12:16 PM traderdrew has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 267 of 280 (538719)
12-09-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by traderdrew
12-09-2009 11:19 AM


HGT not really the heart of the matter
I don't think his comment warranted the threat of removing his posting privileges.
I think they are pretty clearly off-topic metacomments, given what bolder-dash did in his own thread it doesn't seem unreasonable to discourage him doing the same thing to someone else's thread.
How about HGT (horizontal gene transfers) between organisms?
HGT has already been brought up in this thread and it was pointed out that while horizontal gene transfer can allow the introduction of genetic information from one genome to another it does not create novel genetic information. It simply pushes the question of how the functional genetic information originated back a step.
There is that issue of coherence. I also ask, how much of these theoretical evolutionary advancements are happening in labs across the world?
As far as coherence goes this fails somewhat, could you maybe rephrase your question and make it a bit clearer what you actually want to know?
I don't think there was a steady linear increase of information in the genome since some 3.5 billion years ago.
I think you would have a hard time finding anyone in evolutionary biology who claimed this was the case. That is leaving aside that the most common genomes by far on Earth are still bacterial ones.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by traderdrew, posted 12-09-2009 11:19 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by traderdrew, posted 12-09-2009 11:58 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 268 of 280 (538720)
12-09-2009 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Bolder-dash
12-09-2009 10:37 AM


You mean I can join the discussion in the manner of Dr.A? Like I can just say, "When I read gibberish like this, I thoroughly understand why thinking people believe all evolutionists are stupid and wrong."
Someone who maintains that two threes are four is not in fact arguing "in the manner" of someone who maintains that two twos are four.
In this present case, I maintain that Kaichos Man (rather like yourself) lacks the knowledge of basic biological facts and even terminology to carry on a coherent discussion of evolutionary theory.
If you were to say the same thing about "evolutionists", I should point you to, for example, the 72 Nobel-Prize-winning scientists who acted as amici curiae in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard, and ask you if you really meant to maintain that they were speaking out of ignorance of basic scientific concepts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-09-2009 10:37 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
traderdrew
Member (Idle past 5154 days)
Posts: 379
From: Palm Beach, Florida
Joined: 04-27-2009


Message 269 of 280 (538721)
12-09-2009 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Wounded King
12-09-2009 11:38 AM


Re: HGT not really the heart of the matter
Hi Wounded King,
I was reading some of our old debate the other day and I had the impression you were having fun with me. That is OK. I respect your knowledge as a scientist. If I could do it again, I think I would concentrate on a slower one on one debate instead of dividing my mental abilities among you and others who gang up on me in this forum.
Coherence is something (in my current state of mind) where the codons (not condons :-) 'from an old debate where W.K. corrected me.') generate appropriate function. I would think you don't necessarily need the entire protein to have specific codons, with little margin of error, to perform a "specific function" since I have noticed only a small part of an enzyme can perform a function. There is also coherence where proteins bind to each other and act as teams.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Wounded King, posted 12-09-2009 11:38 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Wounded King, posted 12-09-2009 12:05 PM traderdrew has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 270 of 280 (538722)
12-09-2009 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by traderdrew
12-09-2009 11:58 AM


Re: HGT not really the heart of the matter
I'd be happy to have a debate in [forum=-8] forum, if we could agree on a clear enough topic.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by traderdrew, posted 12-09-2009 11:58 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by traderdrew, posted 12-09-2009 1:00 PM Wounded King has replied

  
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