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Author Topic:   The difference between a human and a rock
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 10 of 102 (539119)
12-13-2009 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Bolder-dash
12-13-2009 6:05 AM


Yes, but the only reason that people and birds, and butterflies don't want to be smashed is because it is a convenient survival mindset.
So the Christian philosophy of repent or you will burn in hell aka grovel at some mysterious supernatural being's feet or you will be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire, is not a survival mindset? I would beg to differ.
As to your second point, I don't believe any 'fundies" as you say, believe that people "should" burn in hell, they probably believe that they will burn in hell.
Actually according to fundies and the Bible itself, they do believe that everyone deserve (which by definition is synonymous with the word "should" by the perspective of God) to burn in hell? If you want me to pull out scriptures defending this position I can i.e. John 3:36, John 10:28, Romans 3:23-24, Romans 6:23.
It is not their choice.
The question is a little more complex than this. I think the question from a Christians perspective is do most people conscienciously choose to go to hell. The answer to this even from even a somewhat rational fundamentalist Christian's perspective is "no". However they do from this Christians perspective indirectly choose to go to hell by disobeying God and not turning to Jesus for their salvation. Would you agree on this?
Plus any fundamentalists extreme views about what religion might wrath is not really pertinent to why an atheist believes a life contains value beyond the fact that it just exists.
I think Dr. Adequates point here is that an atheists defence on the sanctity of life is not any more ungrounded than that of a religious persons. It is just substantiated for different (though some may be the same) reasons.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 6:05 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 6:57 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 11 of 102 (539120)
12-13-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Bolder-dash
12-13-2009 6:29 AM


Any reason not to hurt someone other than this? What if you knew you could do it secretly with no one knowing it was you?
Because in the big picture of social dynamics indiscriminate killing or hurting of other humans or even animals is ultimately destructive to the human race both physically and psychologically.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 6:29 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 7:05 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 13 of 102 (539122)
12-13-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Bolder-dash
12-13-2009 6:57 AM


Bold-dash writes:
I really wasn't asking you (or anyone) to explain or justify what beliefs a Christian fundamentalist might or might not have-I think let them speak for themselves.
I was just addressing your rebuttals with Cavediver and Dr. A. If you rebutt our posts, we have an equal right to rebut your rebuttals.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 6:57 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 16 of 102 (539125)
12-13-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Bolder-dash
12-13-2009 6:57 AM


I was asking atheists why they believe a human deserves more compassion than a rock.
The word "deserve" is a loaded word. As far as from a human perspective, humans and animals prefer to stay alive and not die and therefore will do things within their power to ensure they meet this objective both conscienciously and unconscienciously (aka by instinct).
Like Cavediver discussed earlier, higher intelligance animals have more capability to control their behavior/instincts than lower intelligence organisms and therefore social dynamics (how organisms behave around each other and effect each other) play more into survival than with lower intelligent organisms. Therefore behavior such as altruism and social bonding (forming families, tribes, etc) do more to increase the survivability rate of an organism than do destructive acts. There are of course exceptions to this and this concept of altruistic behavior increasing survivabiliy of a species, family, tribe, etc is complex and not always universal in scope. It also varies in intensity the closer we get to that animal socially speaking i.e. altruism is typically closer in an organisms immediate relationships than with it's more remote relationships. This in a nutshell explains the differences, morally speaking between a human and a rock. We can dig into this deeper if you like.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 6:57 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 19 of 102 (539128)
12-13-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Bolder-dash
12-13-2009 7:05 AM


Why do you care what's good for the human race?
Because in the long run, it is better for me as an individual. If I went around indiscrimanetly hurting or killing people, it hurts me psychologically (the psychological stress would cause my emotions to be at the extremes from sadness to anger to fear which in the long run would wreak erecovable physical harm on my body and mind), socially (there would essentially be no human social fabric, cooperation, collective intelligence if everyone acted this way) and physically (puts strain and stress on my body to try to get away from other people that want to hurt or kill me). In other words, it makes my and other humans life and survival more difficult, uncomfortable and unsustainable. That is why caring for the human race and the world we live in 'good' (personally and socially acceptable).
Rocks don't care what's good for other rocks
Rocks have no capacity for caring much less any other emotion, we as humans and many higher intelligence animals do have this capacity so this is a moot point.
Tigers don't care what is good for giraffes.
Typically no, because they do have the need to in the wild. Humans are one of the few species to have risen to the capacity to be able to care for other species. However, there are special cases in which animals of one species have "cared" for animals of another species.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 7:05 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-13-2009 8:20 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 64 of 102 (539283)
12-14-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Bolder-dash
12-14-2009 1:12 PM


Re: Explaining the evil that does exist
And, your question still doesn't settle the issue of why this feelings of empathy and love are the single most important and strongest feelings that a human ever experiences.
Is that really true Bolder? I beg to differ. Is not anger and fear just as strong and important (morally and psychologically) as love and empathy? Fear and anger can have as much of an effect on a human and those around him he influences as love and empathy. Even empathy or love taken to the extreme can be detrimental both to the individual and to the species. It is a balance of emotions that really aids in the survival of a species. Sometimes anger or fear is needed to spur that individual or group of individuals to do something that is beneficial for that species. Emotions are not all or nothing in effecting the survivability of an organism. Not everything is black and white as you paint it Bolder.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-14-2009 1:12 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 78 of 102 (539362)
12-15-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Bolder-dash
12-14-2009 10:31 PM


Re: Explaining the evil that does exist
Boulder,
Do you have children? Have you raised a human child from birth?
Why am I asking this question? Because if you have this experience (and I have), you realize that we instill, teach, indoctrinate, inculcate, admonish, etc our children with our values, our morality, our religious beliefs or lack thereof, our political views, our vices, our virtues which we have accumulated and learned from our parents, peers, teachers, mentors, preachers, political leaders, as well as ourselves. Stories exist of feral or somewhat feral children who were left to fend for themselves and had minimal to no human contact. Many of these children acted no different than the animals around them, with no concept of good and evil.
What is my point? My point is that without this self-perpetuating system of accumulated culture, values and knowledge, our human concept of morality would cease to exist. We see a hint of very ruditementary moral systems in the highly social organisms at the top of the intelligence ladder of life but these creatures do not have the immense accumulated knowledge that humans have. Without this system we would be lock-step with the rest of the animals with no concept of our anthropomorphic concepts of good and evil.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-14-2009 10:31 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
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