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Author Topic:   Problems with being an Atheist (or Evolutionist)
Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 91 of 276 (540307)
12-23-2009 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Stile
12-23-2009 10:13 AM


Re: The end is unknown, kinda exciting
Stile writes:
To me, it sounds like you first need to define what, specifically, your problem is with death being the end. If you are not afraid of it, what is wrong? Do you simply just not like it? Are you extremely attached to some other alternative you can imagine and desire? Wouldn't that be some form of an irrational fear of not-being-able-to-get-what-you-want?
I am having a hard time thinking of a reason why you cannot accept death being the end, and be okay with that, unless you are somehow irrationally averse to that outcome. That is, I do not think it is possible for you to have an objective issue with death being the end. If that is simply the rules of this reality... the way things are, how can there possible be a reality-based, rational objection?
You make some good points here. If by "fear" you mean dread at the notion of ceasing to exist at a time not of my choosing, then perhaps there is some fear there.
I suppose this isn't really as much of a "problem" for me, but more of a sense of disappointment. As I get older I begin to feel like I have wasted a lot of my time, and I start feeling like I'd better utilise whatever remaining time I have better. This (imho)is a good result of my belief system, in that by considering this life to be the only one, I'm determined to make the best of it.
Perhaps you've helped me narrow down my primary concern - the fact that the cessation of my tenure on this planet will almost certainly come at a time not of my choosing. That does give me a feeling of fear. I worry that I'll go out at a time when I have some unfinished business, and that my last conscious thoughts might include "shit - I forgot to turn off the stove" (that part is a joke, but you get the idea).
Edited by Briterican, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Stile, posted 12-23-2009 10:13 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Statman
Junior Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 12-06-2009


Message 92 of 276 (543916)
01-21-2010 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Modulous
12-06-2009 7:42 PM


Re: iterated dilemmas
Tit for Tat does NOT defect initially.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Modulous, posted 12-06-2009 7:42 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-21-2010 11:21 PM Statman has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 93 of 276 (543925)
01-21-2010 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Statman
01-21-2010 10:02 PM


Re: iterated dilemmas
Tit for Tat does NOT defect initially.
He didn't say that it did --- he said that Tat for Tit defects initially. Which it does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Statman, posted 01-21-2010 10:02 PM Statman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Statman, posted 01-22-2010 9:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Statman
Junior Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 12-06-2009


Message 94 of 276 (543951)
01-22-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Dr Adequate
01-21-2010 11:21 PM


Re: iterated dilemmas
Well, you're right but I don't know why he even mention 'Tat for tit' it a discussion 'Tit for Tat' and I don't know that it would have any bearing on the success of 'Tit for Tat'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-21-2010 11:21 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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menes777
Member (Idle past 4319 days)
Posts: 36
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Joined: 01-25-2010


Message 95 of 276 (544611)
01-27-2010 1:59 PM


Not sure
Unless someone objects I would like to take a crack at giving my take on the points that were raised by Buzzsaw. Wanted to make sure it wouldn't be considered thread jacking or something similar.

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-27-2010 2:11 PM menes777 has not replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 276 (544615)
01-27-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by menes777
01-27-2010 1:59 PM


Re: Not sure
Unless someone objects I would like to take a crack at giving my take on the points that were raised by Buzzsaw. Wanted to make sure it wouldn't be considered thread jacking or something similar.
If you're on topic, then go for it.
If you make a mistake, it can be handeled afterwards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by menes777, posted 01-27-2010 1:59 PM menes777 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 97 of 276 (544761)
01-28-2010 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by menes777
01-27-2010 1:59 PM


It's Okay
menes777 writes:
Unless someone objects I would like to take a crack at giving my take on the points that were raised by Buzzsaw.
Heh... really, it's not that big of a deal.
I know that the formality and admin-monitoring of this place can seem a bit intimidating at first. But, seriously, as long as you're talking about the topic in some way, feel free to post anything you want in any thread.
And, if you have something to say that isn't on topic... you can still say that at anytime. Just propose a new thread (you can even reference any other thread for continuity purposes).
All they ask for around here is for people to respect "staying on topic". The reason for that is to keep interesting subjects from getting lost. Keeping things on topic makes it easy to search the forums for whatever you may be looking for. There really isn't any censorship or writing-skill requirements or anything like that.
As long as your thoughts are related to the topic, please feel free to share your opinions and reasoning. That is, afterall, exactly what keeps forums like this going... people posting.
And welcome to EvC, it's fun here (and really not as strict or formal as it may appear).

This message is a reply to:
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menes777
Member (Idle past 4319 days)
Posts: 36
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Joined: 01-25-2010


Message 98 of 276 (544787)
01-28-2010 12:33 PM


Thanks guy
quote:
1. If I were an evolutionist, logic would call for some explanation for the wide gap of intelligence between humans and other living things (abe: relative to life and death).
Disclaimer: Humans are animals too but for clarification I use animals to refer to everything but humans.
While there could be considered a wipe gap in between humans and living things, there's very simple explanations for how and why.
First, the easiest and shortest explanation for this gap is the fact that humans have the largest brain size in comparison to our body size. When man began to control and use fire to cook food, the need for large jaws became less and less important. Meat could be cooked and as a result the huge jawbones that were needed to eat raw meat weren't needed so much anymore. This allowed the ratio of brain cavity to jaw size to increase with each generation. The birthing canal in a human female can only accommodate a maximum size head to pass through it. Thus as the jaw size decreased, it allowed for an increase in the size of the cranium. As cranium sized increases the size at which the brain could grow to also increases. The larger the brain size the more varied and the more powerful the brain can become. That is why modern humans are so much more intelligent than say chimpanzees or dogs or cats.
Secondly, animals are much more intelligent than people give them credit for. Some Bottle-nose Dolphins have devised a hunting method for catching fish. They swim in a tight circle and stir up the bottom with their tails creating walls of muddy water. This creates an artificial net that the fish think is real. Eventually the circle becomes small enough that the fish panic and jump to escape, right into the waiting Dolphin's mouths. That takes quite a bit of intelligence on several different levels. Essentially they are doing the same thing as human fisherman do with nets. This is but one example of how animals are intelligent enough to not only understand abstract concepts but are able to logically work things out.
Thirdly, the same learning techniques that humans use are generally the same ones used by animals, they just can't take it as far as we can because they don't have the brain power to do so. This is also shown when humans have mental handicaps or mental retardation. It's not that they aren't intelligent enough to learn, it's that they can only learn so far and only understand a certain number of concepts. The same applies to animals as they can only advance in learning to a certain point and then no further.
Finally, humans can use technology and our ability to manipulate our environment to our advantage. One of the benefits of being able to manipulate our environments in complex ways is that we can use it to increase the sum of human intelligence as a whole. We can create schools, libraries, computers and many other things to increase the sum of our intelligence. We have tools for writing and recording information so that it can benefit others. Just imagine how much information is spread around the internet and how much smarter (and sometimes less smart) we are for it.
quote:
3. If I were an evolutionist I might be bothered by the fact that humans have the power over all other living things to manage their lives in whatever way man determines to do. The reason this would bother me is that the Biblical record declares in Genesis that that would be the case.
The first thing that came to mind when I read this was Ace Ventura in his apartment saying "Come to me Jungle friends!". This statement makes it seem like humans have some kind of Jedi like mind power over the lesser creatures. How about swimming with the sharks and see how much power you have over them? Or go try to mess with the cubs of a lioness and see how much power you have. What about all those teeny tiny bacteria that have the power to wipe out millions of people? Those are living things yet sometimes humans can be entirely helpless when it comes to controlling them. If you consider Viruses alive then the problem gets even worse as humans have almost no power over them. How much power did humans have in 1918 when the Avian flu devastated the world. How about all those outbreaks of Bubonic plague? Humans have the ability to change our environments to meet our needs. We can control them and we can wipe them out, but power over the animals we do not have. And we especially don't have power over all living things such bacteria.
Domestication - Domestication can be considered to almost always be a symbiotic relationship. When the bible was written domestication of animals was quite common. Therefore it could be taken for granted that humans have always had power over the animals. Then add in a little something to the bible about how a god gave them this power. Yet that it is not what domestication is about. The cows don't stay with Farmer Brown because he has power over them. They stay because he feeds them, waters them, shelters them, cares for them, fences them in and protects them from predators. Even then if they can get out of the fence they will. That type of control is just an illusion of power. Take away the food, the shelter and the means of control and humans have no power over any of those domestic animals.
quote:
2. If I were an evolutionist I would seriously pursue the phenomena of religion in that throughout the recorded history of humans all cultures have been religious. As an evolutionist this would be a puzzling thing in that this propensity has evolved exclusively into the human brain. This along with the phenomenon of good and evil would lead me to investigate the legitimacy of religions relative to life and death questions.
When early humans couldn't explain something they attributed it to the gods or a god. Religion built up around these beliefs and evolved into what we know as religion today. Yet, as the sum of human knowledge has increased and we began to understand more and more about the world around us, the idea of a god has became less and less. Religion has come from believing in many gods to believing in just one (each). What's next, that all gods go away? Also consider that there are so many different forms of religion out there. There is polytheism, pantheism,monotheism and so on. Yet if there was one god (the Xian one) and he has a plan of salvation for everyone while all the different types of religion? Why all the different sects of Xianity even? I think the fact that there are so many different types of religion is more of a problem for the Xian creationist than the evolutionist.
quote:
4. If I were an evolutionist the mystery of how evolvement of good and evil has affected humanity socially, morally and other ways would.
Good and evil are artificial terms created by humans for a couple of reasons. As it applies to society, anything that goes against the grains of society is considered evil. As it applies to morals, usually what is morally correct is considered good and what is morally incorrect (or immoral) is considered evil. Yet is it really evil to steal if you are starving? Is it evil to lie to protect someone's life? Yes there are some things that no benefit can come of them no matter how you spin it. Such as rape, killing someone because they were in the way, child molestation, etc etc. Those things could be considered evil no matter what the circumstance. So then is evil considered to be destruction or harm without benefit or positive outcome as a whole? Would you consider hunters who only hunt for trophies to be evil? What about little kids beating the crap out of each other on the playground? Why are these not considered evil? Then the question to be asked is what is good? Is it good to give $20 to charity? Some might argue that giving to anyone like that isn't good because it doesn't encourage them to help themselves. The point is that good & evil are almost always relative and are situational defined at best. Society isn't defined by good and evil, it defines what it is good and what is evil. The same applies to morals as they fit into any society. Aside from that good and evil do not exist.

  
Nunquam
Junior Member (Idle past 4718 days)
Posts: 8
From: New Jersey, USA
Joined: 02-10-2009


Message 99 of 276 (549916)
03-11-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
12-08-2008 10:37 AM


My main problem with being an atheist is realizing that this is the only life I have and the only life that my friends and family have. Consequently, we will never see each other again. This was the major consolation that religion provided for me - that I would see them again (so long as they didn't end up in hell).
I'm beginning to cope with this problem though: I won't be missing anyone when I'm dead, so I wouldn't know any better anyway. I also try to consider what would happen if people didn't die (over-population, monotony of life, etc). That tends to eliminate the problem for me as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 12-08-2008 10:37 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Stile, posted 03-20-2010 4:51 PM Nunquam has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 100 of 276 (550767)
03-18-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Straggler
12-03-2009 2:51 PM


"Debating with deists." Precisely so.
For me the greatest challenge has been to not go berserk when confronting the ultimate ignorance that most theists portray.
Im having hard time accepting that majority of members of my very own species are willfully denying anything and everything the world has to offer just because of camel-riders campfire stories.
Then there are ultimate examples like Kurt Wise who leaves me just speechless. That is what faith and religions do to people.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2010 1:39 PM saab93f has replied
 Message 106 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-14-2010 10:24 AM saab93f has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 276 (550815)
03-18-2010 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by saab93f
03-18-2010 2:47 AM


the ultimate ignorance that most theists portray
Most?
that majority of members of my very own species are willfully denying anything and everything the world has to offer just because of camel-riders campfire stories
Majority?
Where are you getting your figures?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by saab93f, posted 03-18-2010 2:47 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by saab93f, posted 03-19-2010 2:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 102 of 276 (550883)
03-19-2010 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by New Cat's Eye
03-18-2010 1:39 PM


Most of theists believe that an omnipotent "thing" is watching their every move and expecting worship. To me that is ignorance of reality.
If one sums up the numbers of adherents of Abrahamic religions then that equals to a majority. Abrahamic religions have their roots in Middle-East campfire stories (previously told by Sumeritans et al.).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2010 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-19-2010 10:04 AM saab93f has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 276 (550905)
03-19-2010 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by saab93f
03-19-2010 2:39 AM


Welcome to EvC, saab93f. Thanks for replying.
Wierd name... Are you a 93 year old female that drives a Saab?
Most of theists believe that an omnipotent "thing" is watching their every move and expecting worship. To me that is ignorance of reality.
How does that follow? Seems like a non sequitur to me...
Assuming reality is godless, how does someone being convinced of something fallacious, or choosing to believe something by faith, chalk up as ignorance?
Doesn't that assume that reality shows that god does not exist? Can you spell that one out for me?
One of my problems with being this type of atheist is that I don't see how I could know that god doesn't exist.
If one sums up the numbers of adherents of Abrahamic religions then that equals to a majority. Abrahamic religions have their roots in Middle-East campfire stories (previously told by Sumeritans et al.).
And you think those adherents "are willfully denying anything and everything the world has to offer"? And their only reason is "just because of camel-riders campfire stories"?
Or are you just employing some hyperbole here?
The theists I know don't deny much of any of the things the world has to offer, and they have lots of reasons they believe besides the campfire stories. You just look plain old wrong to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by saab93f, posted 03-19-2010 2:39 AM saab93f has replied

Replies to this message:
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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 104 of 276 (551071)
03-20-2010 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
03-19-2010 10:04 AM


Thanks for the welcome.
Wrong I may be as well as mis-spoken (or should this be mis-written) as English is not my mother tongue.
Any way the entire idea of there being a god is plain weird to me. Majority (a generalization once again) of believers are capable of choosing parts of the Bible that are allegorical and parts that are literal but on what grounds? Who gets to say that the snake didnt really speak or the bush didnt actually burn?
Thanks for replying anyway.
P.S. Try googling my screen name Saab 93F

This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 105 of 276 (551072)
03-20-2010 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Nunquam
03-11-2010 12:44 PM


Death, The End, and Atheism
Hello Nunquam, welcome to EvC! Most other people will reply to your messages promptly. I, however, am above such commonalities and prefer to make people wait.
And, today, that's the best apology you'll get out of me
Nunquam writes:
My main problem with being an atheist is realizing that this is the only life I have and the only life that my friends and family have. Consequently, we will never see each other again. This was the major consolation that religion provided for me - that I would see them again (so long as they didn't end up in hell).
"Consequently, we will never see each other again." Implies that you feel uncomfortable because when you die, you won't be able to see your friends and family... and you'll miss them. But... how can you miss something when you don't exist to feel remorse in any way? You seem to be dreading the thought of a future feeling that will never come upon you.
If, indeed, you die and you do miss seeing your friends and family, then death is not "the end" and you are existing within some sort of afterlife, and what you think atheism entails isn't actually true.
I think you need to reflect more upon what "non-existence" really entails, and how it will be impossible for you (or your friends/family) to feel anything at all... including any negativity or remorse or "missing them" kind of thoughts.
Also, remember that "atheism" doesn't necessarily mean that you do not believe in any afterlife. It just means you don't beleive in any afterlife that includes a God.
I do agree, however, that all objective evidence we have to go on currently shows us that death is "the end." Whether or not that's 100% true, only the adventure of death knows.
I'm beginning to cope with this problem though: I won't be missing anyone when I'm dead, so I wouldn't know any better anyway. I also try to consider what would happen if people didn't die (over-population, monotony of life, etc). That tends to eliminate the problem for me as well.
...and, this is the part where I would apologize for not reading your whole message before replying to the first paragraph and realizing that you already know everything I just talked about and likely have moved on from this issue on your own.
That's what I would have said, but I already apologized enough for today and I don't feel like doing it again So I shall post my ramblings and hopefully someone, somewhere will get a smile. And everyone else will just think I'm an idiot
Have a good time looking around these forums, it's a good place to learn a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Nunquam, posted 03-11-2010 12:44 PM Nunquam has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Nunquam, posted 06-15-2010 6:52 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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