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Author Topic:   Intermediates
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 12 of 52 (540888)
12-29-2009 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by AndrewPD
12-29-2009 9:33 PM


Confused issues
I don't see why a skeleton on or gene make-up that is simply similar to ours means we are related. As I mentioned with the Dodo. It didn't leave improved ancestors.
Extinct animals fail and hence don't leave ancestors. Such as the soon to be extinct Panda.
The panda will perhaps leave no descendants, but it has ancestors going back millions then billions or years. You seem to be confusing the two terms.
My point is that humans are created apparently by millions of mutations so at some stage we would have had less functional, knees, backs, language etc. What kind of mutation could lead to our knee with out us being initially crippled.
Bad subject: I've been on crutches for two months with a ruined knee.
But lets look at things realistically--at every stage of evolution the populations, and all individuals therein, had functioning knees. Those knees changed over time, but at each species level, and for each individual and each population, the knee was fully functional. It is a common error of creationists to think of organisms being half formed or crippled. They weren't.
But as I mentioned by refering to "complete species", recreations of transitional species like elephants with half a trunk look half formed intuitively. Only something like a Duck billed platypus gives that illusion of transition.
"Intuitively" is not a meaningful term. An elephant with a trunk half as long was fully formed and fully functional. Perhaps a longer trunk was better, but it is a mistake to think of earlier forms as "half formed."
I have absolutely no problem with being related to apes or pigs or an amoeba. But I am not going to form my sense of identity based on who I am allegedly descended from.
Science provides evidence of relationships, but your sense of identity is something only you can develop. But wouldn't it be more sensible to base your sense of identity on reality rather than fiction? Perhaps you should try to reconcile the two.
But there appears to be no intermediated between humans and mokeys and Goriillas. I don't see why every intermediate stage would fail.
There are a lot of intermediates between monkeys, gorillas, and humans.
Many of them are on the direct line between an original ancestor, an early ape/monkey, and modern monkeys, gorillas, and humans. These species did not fail--they evolved into new species and successfully transitioned into modern monkeys, gorillas, and humans.
Another way to phrase this: these populations persisted through millions of years, but they changed as they went. Can you call this a failure for any one of those species? I wouldn't call it that.
Others species split off from those direct lines and did become extinct. They should not be confused with intermediate or transitional species. You could call them failures because they died out, but that has nothing to do with those species whose lines were successful and are still flourishing.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AndrewPD, posted 12-29-2009 9:33 PM AndrewPD has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 52 (540895)
12-29-2009 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AndrewPD
12-29-2009 10:30 PM


Intermediates
Thanks for not ranting at me.
No problem.
Just a brief point before I go to bed. Would you consider a giraffe with a shorter neck, neanderthal man, prehistoric horse etc as aesthetically pleasing as the current variation?
One problem I have with intermediates is that they are rarely/never aesthetically pleasing thats partly what I mean by half formed.
Well, when we look back we do see where there were changes, and we've kind of grown used to the high vaulted skulls of modern humans rather than the lower vaults of Neanderthals.
But if you were raised in a population of Neanderthals you would consider that lower vaulted skull and the large brow ridges the height of style and beauty. (And the tail array of a peacock is just the thing to turn on a peahen.)
The book The Clan of the Cave Bear explores the human/Neanderthal perspective at some length. You might give it a read.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by AndrewPD, posted 12-29-2009 10:30 PM AndrewPD has not replied

  
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