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Author
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Topic: Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others)
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 92 of 425 (539798)
12-20-2009 2:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Nuggin
12-19-2009 10:17 PM
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Re: Kind
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes: But examples abound in nature as well. One need only look at the world of cattle to see that there are literally dozens of different breeds/subspecies to choose from. This DIRECTLY contradicts your claim that one subspecies can never ever be breed to produce a new alternate subspecies. So if I breed a herford cow with a Gernsey bull, what will I get? Will it be a Cow that is 1/2 herford and 1/2 Gernsey? OR Will it be some other kind of creature? I have never said there is not variation within kinds in fact I have given examples of animals I produced by selective breeding.
Nuggin writes: Now, since you've asked me to define kind and I have and you've asked me to provide examples of kinds producing new kinds and I have, I'll assume that you will admit that you were wrong. You have given an example of varation in kinds nothing more. When they cease to be cows and become flying creatures then you could say they produced a new kind.
Nuggin writes: Oh wait, that's right. You won't. Glad to see that after three years absence I can return to find Icant still exactly where I left him. I am short 3 years by 3 months. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Nuggin, posted 12-19-2009 10:17 PM | | Nuggin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 111 by Nuggin, posted 12-20-2009 11:01 AM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 93 of 425 (539799)
12-20-2009 2:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by Peg
12-20-2009 12:47 AM
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Big Cats
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: The 2 big cats he took may have been very different to what we have today but their reproduction likely produced the great variety we now have. ie lions, tigers, jaguars, lynx etc etc etc.
Noah did not take any cats. The cats arrived just at loading time. But my question is why would they have to be "Big Cats"? Couldn't they have been small cubs? Take up less room and less food. Remember God provided the animals for Noah he did not have to go round them up. Just a thought. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by Peg, posted 12-20-2009 12:47 AM | | Peg has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 94 of 425 (539801)
12-20-2009 2:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 88 by Peg
12-20-2009 1:02 AM
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Re: Kinds
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: we know that animals can produce great variety within their kinds such as dogs and cats for instance. Yes we humans are responsible for most of the breeds of dogs and cats as well as cows, horses, chickens, even some fish, and birds. We have even interfered with many of the wild animals such as deer. But yes Noah did need at least a pair of each kind which God gladly provided for the journey. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by Peg, posted 12-20-2009 1:02 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 95 of 425 (539803)
12-20-2009 3:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 81 by Nuggin
12-19-2009 11:43 PM
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Re: Kind
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes: Icant admitted that he did not have a definition for them and asked me to supply one. Well no, I just admitted I could not come up with one you liked so I invited you to make up your own. Which you made a bigger mess out of than I did. For thousands of years there was no problem with what a kind was. Now all of a sudden it is a big problem. If it is a dog it is a dog kind. If it is a wolf it is a wolf kind. If it is a tiger it is a tiger kind. If it is a lion it is a lion kind. If it is a horse it is a horse kind. If it is a cow it is a cow kind. If it is a bear it is a bear kind. If it is a man/woman it is a mankind. And the list goes on and on and on.
Nuggin writes: Of course this definition makes the Bible passages false, but really - aren't all Bible passages basically false? Would you care to start a thread and prove Genesis 1:1 false? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by Nuggin, posted 12-19-2009 11:43 PM | | Nuggin has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 126 of 425 (540258)
12-23-2009 1:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 120 by Nuggin
12-22-2009 2:03 AM
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Re: Kind
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes: ICANT doesn't believe in evolution, even of his own arguments. Sure I believe thing evolve. I believe man has created over 500 different breeds of dogs from the dog kind. Over 70 breeds of swine from the swine kind. Over 90 breeds of cows from the cow kind. Over 300 breeds of horses from the horse kind. Nobody knows how many hundreds of breeds of chickens from the chicken kind. But we have never created a new kind of animal out of any of them. Just look at what we have done to the human race. When I was in High School the largest player we had on our team weighed 228 lbs, and was 6' tall. Now they weigh 3 to 4 hundred lbs with heights up to 6' 7" and run a 4.9 40 yard dash. Looks like they are evolving to me. I could be mistaken though. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by Nuggin, posted 12-22-2009 2:03 AM | | Nuggin has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Kind
Hi hooah,
hooah writes: What "kind" are these animals, ICANT? A Okapi, is a giraffe kind. A pangolin, is a anteater kind. An armadillo Girdled lizard, as the name implies is a lizard kind. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 133 of 425 (540440)
12-25-2009 9:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 129 by caffeine
12-24-2009 11:00 AM
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Re: Kind
Hi caffeine,
caffeine writes: There is a big problem with defining kinds this way, just by using their common names. Why? There are many breeds of dogs. There are many breeds of wolves. There are several breeds of tigers. There are many breeds of Hare's. There is not a problem with a kind. The problem comes when someone tries to define a kind using what man has set up as the evolutionary tree of life. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by caffeine, posted 12-24-2009 11:00 AM | | caffeine has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 134 of 425 (540442)
12-25-2009 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by ZenMonkey
12-23-2009 8:11 PM
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Re: Kind
Hi ZenMonkey,
ZenMonkey writes: On the other hand, are human beings of the same kind as squirrel monkeys, since we are also in the same order, Well the problem is you believe everything evolved from a single cell life form. So no, humans are of the mankind. Squirrel monkeys are of the monkey kind. Each was created fully functional and full grown.
ZenMonkey writes: If you agree that every kind was present on the ark, just how many beetles and monkeys are you going to have to have on board? Help me out on this one? I was not there and no one kept a complete record of how many kinds were there. Only that every one of every kind that was supposed too showed up on boarding day and entered the Ark. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by ZenMonkey, posted 12-23-2009 8:11 PM | | ZenMonkey has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi jasonlang, Welcome to EvC.
jasonlang writes: Wolves and Dogs can Hybridize - so they must be one 'Kind' according to your previous claims. What previous claims? You breed two dogs you get a dog. You breed two wolves you get a wolf. They each produce after their own kind. Would there be a wolfdog if man had not interfered? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by jasonlang, posted 12-31-2009 1:18 PM | | jasonlang has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 226 of 425 (541134)
12-31-2009 10:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 223 by greyseal
12-31-2009 7:04 PM
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: ICANT, I know you have trouble accepting reality, but...what? I don't have a problem with reality. But I do have a problem accepting fantasy land explanations.
greyseal writes: are you telling me that man can create a dog from a wolf? I did not say that. I did say mankind had interfered with the two kinds of animals. They have taken and produced a hybrid animal from the two. I suppose the insemination was/is by artificial means as on a natural basis it would be difficult. But if you leave them alone in the wild insemination will never happen as wolves have lifetime mates. The males will protect their lady to the point of killing an intruder. No one in the pack will bother another's lady. Without mankind's intervention there would be no wolf dog. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 223 by greyseal, posted 12-31-2009 7:04 PM | | greyseal has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 243 of 425 (541196)
01-01-2010 12:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 242 by greyseal
01-01-2010 11:09 AM
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: so horses, donkeys and zebras (at least) are all the same kind because they CAN interbreed I have never said they are the same kind. In fact up thread I said there was an ass kind, a horse kind, and a zebra kind.
greyseal writes: but dogs and wolves, quite capable of interbreeding in the wild (although it's probably rare - although the famous story of balto would tell me that's a lie if you say it never happens) What does a Siberian husky work dog named baito have to do with wolves and dogs breeding in the wild? He himself was neutered. The Siberian husky breed was created by the Chukchi people of Russia. I did not say it was impossible for them to breed in the wild. But if you know anything about wild wolves you will know that it is very unlikely. Wolves run in packs. They select a mate for life. The young females are not allowed to mate with any of the mated males. This is controled by the females. The males will kill any that try to mate with their lady. No one from another pack is allowed to infiltrate the pack. Must less mate with their females. The dominate male enforces all rules., if necessary. A dog would stand little chance against a wild wolf, and would not be accepted into a pack. Now animals that are in the wild that have been altered by humans would be different. Would you agree that the 2 horses in my avatar are the same kind? The mare is 17 1/2" tall and weighs 57 pounds. Would it be possible for them to breed and produce offspring? They are both full grown horses of the same kind. God Bess,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 242 by greyseal, posted 01-01-2010 11:09 AM | | greyseal has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 244 of 425 (541199)
01-01-2010 1:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 227 by Vacate
12-31-2009 10:54 PM
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi vacate,
vacate writes: By these standards didn't you just make the ark explode with all kinds of kinds?
I did not make anything explode. God had the animals He wanted on the ark arrive at the ark when it came time to board the ark. From those animals we have all animals that are on earth today and those who have gone extinct in the last 6k+ years. Any animal that was extinct prior to 6k+ years ago was not on the ark. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 227 by Vacate, posted 12-31-2009 10:54 PM | | Vacate has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 246 of 425 (541205)
01-01-2010 1:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 228 by Asgara
12-31-2009 11:39 PM
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi Asgara, From your article Wolf Dog Hybrids in the Wild quote:
Hybridization in the wild usually occurs near human habitations where wolf density is low and dogs are common.
You don't call that human intrvention? This link does not work. Rare but it does happen Since I have never said that kinds could not cross breed and produce a new kind what does dingos and coyote's producing offspring have to do wth anything? If you breed dogs you get dogs. If you breed wolves you get wolves. If you breed wolves and dogs you get half wolf and half dog. Then you can call it whatever you want. But it is not a dog and neither is it a wolf. Some animals produce offspring that are sterile. Humans do the same. So what? Are they not human? God Bles,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 228 by Asgara, posted 12-31-2009 11:39 PM | | Asgara has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi ZenMonkey,
ZenMonkey writes: So of what kind are these wolf-dogs? Did you just create a new kind or didn't you?
Why did you call this half breed a wolf dog? Instead of a wolf or dog? But if you breed two dogs you get dog pups after their kind. If you breed two wolves you get wolf pups after their kind. They never produce anything other than pups after their kind. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 249 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-01-2010 2:41 PM | | ZenMonkey has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.6
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Message 257 of 425 (541220)
01-01-2010 3:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 248 by greyseal
01-01-2010 2:20 PM
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Re: Kind (Wolves)
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: so where do you set the line in the sand? I thought the definition of "kinds" was easy, straightforward and simple? It is simple. If you breed two horses a male and female you get a horse. If you breed two dogs male and female you get dog pups. If you breed two wolves male and female you get wolf pups. It makes no differece what male and female of a kind you breed their offspring will be the same kind. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 248 by greyseal, posted 01-01-2010 2:20 PM | | greyseal has replied |
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