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Member (Idle past 2317 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
I'm curious where the genetic studies are that show dogs and wolves to be two wholly separate kinds, as opposed to dogs being different breeds of domesticated wolves?
I mean, here is a study that says otherwise (you should sign up, it might do some good. It's free!)
Sciencemag writes: Archaeological finds from Mesolithic sites around the world indicate that the dog was the first domestic animal (1). Its origin from wolves is well established from genetic as well as behavioral and morphological data (1-3), but apart from this, available clues give no clear picture of its origin. Interpretation of the archaeological record is problematic because of the difficulty in discriminating between small wolves and domestic dogs (4, 5); however, the earliest finds believed to be from domestic dogs are a single jaw from 14,000 years before the present (yr B.P.) in Germany (5, 6) and an assemblage of small canids from 12,000 yr B.P. in Israel (7, 8) Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan |
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jasonlang Member (Idle past 3425 days) Posts: 51 From: Australia Joined: |
ICANT wrote:
Can you breed two dogs and get a wolf pup? Can you breed two wolves and get a dog pup? If you can then they are the same kind. If you can't then they are a different kind.
ICANTS (universal, unquestionable) kind rule :
Can you breed two X's and get a baby Y? Can you breed two Y's and get a baby X? If you can then they are the same kind. If you can't then they are a different kind. Two Chihuahua's never produce a baby RottweilerTwo Rottweiler's never produce a baby Chihuahua So Rottweiler and Chihuahua must be separate Kinds due to the universal rule you uncovered. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes: umm, ICANT, but that sounds a hell of a lot closer to evolution than I think you meant it to. Where did you get the impression I did not believe in evolution? Being raised on a farm and breeding animals to produce a larger more durable breed I know evolution takes place. But in all my years I have never seen one kind produce another kind. I can find no evidence for such ever taking place. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
But in all my years I have never seen one kind produce another kind. I can find no evidence for such ever taking place.
May I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you admit that a wolf-dog hybrid would be neither wolf kind nor dog kind and would logically therefore be a new kind. This post for example: Message 267 Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given. It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
It is called a Thylacine. Early European settlers in Tasmania dubbed it the marsupial wolf, kangaroo wolf, pouched wolf and native wolf, but the scientific name of thylacine is use in modern times. Early literature also calls it the opossum hyena, native hyena, dog-faced dasyurus, dog-headed opossum and zebra opossum. The names Tasmanian tiger and native tiger are also used and date back to the Dutch helmsman Jacobszoon who explored Tasmania in 1624. It was apparently a familiar sight to the crew of ships owned by the Dutch East India Company and to convicts of a penal colony created in 1803 at Derwent River. One early European observer referred to it as "a kangaroo masquerading as a wolf" and decribed it as having the head and teeth of a wolf, the stripes of a tiger, the tail of a kangaroo and the backward-opening pouch of an opossum. I just want to know where the distinction lies...... Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan |
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
jasonlang writes: You do realize by postulating a separate creation for both Wolves and Dogs you are not only saying you know better than science, Its common knowledge around here I believe the Bible.
jasonlang writes: If you think lions and housecats are the same Baramin, how on Earth are dogs and wolves seperate ? There's no way in hell little tabby's gonna mate with a lion, artificial insemination or not, but you claim they're all the same. Where did I make this claim?
jasonlang writes: EDIT : btw look at the DNA results from testing dogs, several lines including the German Shephard have MORE in common with wolf DNA than they have in common with the line including Golden Retrivers/Labradors, so is s German shepherd a Wolf or a Dog ?? : That would be a better question to ask the breeders that produce the German shepherd. As I understand it the German shepherd is a hybrid.
jasonlang writes: I'm sure you weren't aware of patting a pet wolf last time you visited a friend who had a German Shepard I never pet a German shepherd I did not raise. I have owned too many of them. When I get a female I want her eyes just opened. It takes a lot of bonding and that is the best time to start. You feed them from a bottle and have them become dependent on you. They will become very protective of their humans and territory. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Dr.
DrJones writes: May I suggest you go back and read your own posts where you admit that a wolf-dog hybrid would be neither wolf kind nor dog kind and would logically therefore be a new kind. Where in any of my posts did I say that if you cross a wolf and a dog you would not get a hybrid? I did say if you breed two animals of a kind you would get an animal of the same kind. You will never get a hybrid. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3917 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
I did say if you breed two animals of a kind you would get an animal of the same kind. You will never get a hybrid. The rather Arab-looking Barack Obama is a hybrid of African and American parentage. The domestic cat is a hybrid of the African wildcat and the Jungle wildcat.
If you breed two horses a male and female you get a horse. If you breed two dogs male and female you get dog pups. If you breed two wolves male and female you get wolf pups. If you breed two humans, you get a human. If you breed two canines, you get a canine. If you breed two equines, you get an equine.
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jasonlang Member (Idle past 3425 days) Posts: 51 From: Australia Joined: |
jasonlang writes: You do realize by postulating a separate creation for both Wolves and Dogs you are not only saying you know better than science, Its common knowledge around here I believe the Bible. Fair enough, but you're deliberately avoiding my QUESTION and pretending that a point I stated as a tautology is the question : that you believe you know better than science is not in doubt. So to restate : how come you know so much better than all the expert CHRISTIAN Baraminologists who spend their whole career putting this stuff together, they have dog/wolf as a single Baramin (I will be annoyed if you dredge the literature for that one-in-a-million Baraminologist who just happens to concur with you on this). BTW they believe in the Bible every bit as much as you do, and, I imagine, know it in much more detail : http://www.conservapedia.com/Baraminology
Jonathan Sarfati writes regarding the Biblical kinds of organisms:
Based on the Biblical criterion for kinds, creationists deduce that as long as two creatures can hybridize with true fertilization, the two creatures are (i.e. descended from) the same kind. Also, if two creatures can hybridize with the same third creature, they are all members of the same kind. The hybridization criterion is a valid operational definition, which could in principle enable researchers to list all the kinds. The implication is one-wayhybridization is evidence that they are the same kind, but it does not necessarily follow that if hybridization cannot occur then they are not members of the same kind (failure to hybridize could be due to degenerative mutations). After all, there are couples who can’t have children, and we don’t classify them as a different species, let alone a different kind. Now, which parts of the above excerpt are rubbish, and why? PS : Sorry about the cat/lion thing, I checked, it was something Peg said, not you, it's been a long thread. AND JUST FOR FUN EVERYBODY : Not a valid community | | Fandom
Baraminology begins by examining the names of each known animal, plant, or fungus, and rigorously analyzing them using the well-thought-out technique of irreducible complexity. For example, the "dog", consisting of a mere three letters, constitutes a baramin known as the dog kind, because if you remove any one of the letters, you get either "do", "dg", or "og", all of which are palpable nonsense. On the other hand, the Pacific Northwest Tree Octopus, according to the following five-step baraminological reduction pathway: Pacific Northwest Tree OctopusPacific No-thwest Tree O-topus P-cific No-t-west Tre- O-top-s P-cif-c No-t-wes- Tre- --top-- --ci--- No---we-- -re- ---o--- --c---- -o---w--- ---- ------- is not only reducibly complex, but is also clearly a variety of cow, which places it squarely within the cow kind. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.
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greyseal Member (Idle past 3884 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
ICANT writes: greyseal writes: they cannot be a new kind, because THAT'S. NOT. POSSIBLE. According to whom? well, there are these people who we shall call "creationists" who believe that a superbeing of ultimate power created not only everything else, but also the very earth you're walking on, and all plants and animals upon it, in the seas or in the air. these people don't believe in a secular theory called "the theory of evolution" because, they say, their god created all the kinds of animals in the same general time-frame that he created everythign else (generally called a week, although god slacked off on the last day, so six days, really). These people, the creationists, don't believe that things can change significantly - that everything that was created way back when was created as a specific type they call simply a "kind", and they firmly disbelieve it is possible in any way, shape or form for these "kinds" to change (because, they say, that would be called "evolution"). They say, therefore, that whatever WAS a dog, will always be a dog, and whatever WAS a wolf, will always produce a wolf - that these two types of animals, these two "kinds" are forever and always separate and distinct. It's really a core, core part of their belief system (irrespective of anything called "evidence" that the godless heathens and pagans can produce using their evil system of belief called "the scientific method") - things don't change because god made kinds as they were, evolution can't hasn't and won't ever happen ("microevolution" notwithstanding, which can account for hair colour or size or other small, minor and insignificant changes). Now, silly me, I thought you were a creationist who believed that god made kinds as set, specific, unchanging Kinds (dogs always make dogs, you said - and wolves always make wolves) and that evolution therefore cannot ever happen through any known mechanism. Now you're telling me that dogs and wolves - two DISTINCT kinds - can have hybrid babies, and THOSE babies can have babies, and produce...NEW KINDS? As, and I'll ask you once again to answer the darned question, WHAT IS THE OFFSPRING OF A WOLF AND A DOG? IS IT A WOLF? IS IT A DOG? IS IT A NEW KIND? it must be a, b or c. Pick one. answer the question. do not bring up any other strawmen until you have. Edited by greyseal, : minor edit, Im sure I missed a few spelling mistakes... Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.
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greyseal Member (Idle past 3884 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
ICANT, refrain from commenting on my reply here until you've covered everything else please - ignoring questions you don't like rather than saying "oops, sorry, I was wrong" is worse than bad form, it is cowardly.
jasonlang writes: Jonathan Sarfati writes regarding the Biblical kinds of organisms:
Based on the Biblical criterion for kinds, creationists deduce that as long as two creatures can hybridize with true fertilization, the two creatures are (i.e. descended from) the same kind. Also, if two creatures can hybridize with the same third creature, they are all members of the same kind. The hybridization criterion is a valid operational definition, which could in principle enable researchers to list all the kinds. The implication is one-wayhybridization is evidence that they are the same kind, but it does not necessarily follow that if hybridization cannot occur then they are not members of the same kind (failure to hybridize could be due to degenerative mutations). After all, there are couples who can’t have children, and we don’t classify them as a different species, let alone a different kind. Now, which parts of the above excerpt are rubbish, and why? I'll say what I don't like - it's the non-exclusivity of it all. if it CAN "hybridize" it's the same "kind" (great, tell us what we don't know - dogs and wolves are very closely related, so close that they're the same species). if it CAN'T "hybridize" it might NOT be the same "kind" wow, gee. that's two sentences saying nothing about what is or is not a "kind" - for this to be in any way, shape or form useful beyond posing or to placate those capable of rectal-cranial inversions you need to shut out that pesky, massively oversized hole in the theory about what is NOT a kind and why. if you postulate "sparrows and ostriches look pretty similar...they could be the same kind", using your very, very lax "is/isn't" then you could easily say that, well, a sparrow is a proto-ostrich that got really small and can still fly through "degeneration" (i.e. it's size is a bad mutation, obviously). You could also very easily say that an ostrich is a degenerate proto-sparrow because it's gotten too big to fly, it's wings shrunk and now it has to run on the ground. the problem there is that this "kind" theory (if that's the core of it) is...less than adequate. it is essentially unfalsifiable, untestable, non-decisive and therefore utterly useless. is a dog/wolf a mutated bear that just got smaller and oddly-shaped? is an elephant a mutated crocodile that just grew too big? ...you do realise I'm taking the piss to highlight the fact that this "theory" can be taken apart by a ten year old armed with a good book on taxonomy? Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Where in any of my posts did I say that if you cross a wolf and a dog you would not get a hybrid?
nowhere, but you did say:
But in all my years I have never seen one kind produce another kind. I can find no evidence for such ever taking place. So of a wolf-dog which according to you is neither of the wolf nor dog kinds is an example of the creation of a new kind, falisifing the above quote. It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi jasonlang
jasonlang writes: BTW they believe in the Bible every bit as much as you do, and, I imagine, know it in much more detail Well I believe in the literal Bible. I study the LXX, Hebrew, and Greek texts. But yes it is possible they know more than I do. But since the Holy Spirit leads me I will listen to Him rather than them. The statement in your reference :
quote: I do not believe in a young earth so I put no faith in anything they say.
jasonlang writes: Now, which parts of the above excerpt are rubbish, and why? You have my statements concerning kinds and hybrids I see no need to repeat them. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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jasonlang Member (Idle past 3425 days) Posts: 51 From: Australia Joined: |
Now you're going on about a Young Earth which is completely off-topic. Wouldn't it be better to not reply at all than to reply that you refuse to reply ? My point in presenting the standard creationist kinds definition was to show you how far your definitions so far in this forum have been lacking, compared to a definition which most evolutionists already think is sucky.
see my post #272 which you have not responded to. Give me a criteria by which rottweiler and chihuahua are the same kind, but which separates rottweilers and chihuahuas from wolves. 'Dog' is just a name after all so the names people use don't count. Remember if noone had seen a wolf before, we'd just think they were a type of dog. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given. Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Hi ICANT. I posted two things I'd like a response about.
Message 271 and
Message 275 I feel both are pretty substantial in light of this discussion and your response would give us all a better understanding as to what a "kind" really is (or at least a more distinct line). Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan
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