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Author Topic:   Sentient life in the universe
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 5 of 42 (541507)
01-03-2010 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Anquetas
01-02-2010 6:08 PM


Sentient life would mean christianity would be wrong in my mind. One of the empirical way christianity could be falsified from my POV.
(I don't think this is the case for every christian however)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Anquetas, posted 01-02-2010 6:08 PM Anquetas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Anquetas, posted 01-04-2010 1:02 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 11 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-05-2010 12:54 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 8 of 42 (541535)
01-04-2010 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Anquetas
01-04-2010 1:02 AM


Intelligent alien life doesn't fit at all with christianity. Since they aren't descendant of humans, they wouldn't need to be saved from his sinful nature.
And of course, I do think genesis implies that humans were the summum of God's creation, ''created in is image'' etc. etc.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Blue Jay, posted 01-04-2010 12:40 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 10 of 42 (541686)
01-05-2010 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Blue Jay
01-04-2010 12:40 PM


There are many Christians who believe that God created more worlds than just Earth, and that many of these worlds are also inhabited by His creations. After all, if He did it once, why couldn't He do it again?
Nothing I've ever read in the Bible (or the Book of Mormon, for that matter) rules out the possibility that some of God's children live on other worlds.
God can do anything and everything. It is no more difficult for him to create other habitable planets with sentient life on them. Just as it would not have been difficult for him to create us 'via' evolution.
However, I'm not concerned with what he could have done, but rather he said he did. And although the Bible doesn't rule out sentient extraterrestial life, it leaves little place for it in the way it positions humankind above all the rest of creation.
If God created life on other worlds, what's to say they wouldn't have a sinful nature of their own?
Then the question could be asked as to how they could pay the price of their sins. In christian theology, Jesus Christ comes to pay for our sins through his death on the cross. Now, if this same sacrifice would also pay for their sin, it brings up several difficulties.
How unlikely is it then that God decided to incarnate himself in a human rather then any other of those sentient kinds ? And how could they know about his sacrifice and that their debt was paid ? (Something like: My son has died for your sins, but it was on another planet. but I'll tell you how it happened their is this thing called a cross, which is made out of wood, which is a material which come from trees, which is a plant on this planet. And these crosses were used by romans, who were a nation of human, who were conquering all of the known world, un der Caesar, etc. ????)
What I tried to say here is that even the cultural background simply to understand the life of Jesus would be far too complicated to tell them, and by this then they could but by great difficulty understand why and how they could be saved.
The other option would be that Jesus's sacrific would only pay for humankinds sin. And that each other sentient life would have had their own son of God who would pay for their sins. Which is in clear contradiction with the trinitary aspect of God which I think is a biblical truth. (The other option of God's only son paying for all the different sins by incarnating in all the different sentient lifeforms is ruled out by the biblical teaching that Jesus is still supposd to be a human even in heaven.)
All this to say that I see lots of theological difficulties and logical inconsistencies with sentient life and christianity, and that the effort to overcome these in order for christianity to 'still be true' would be overwhelming and in the end, it would no longer look like anything we today call christianity. Also in my first post I clearly said that this was pretty subjective and so it was my personnal opinion. I can see how someone would accomodate his christian believes with such a discovery, but I couldn't.
Furthermore, only evolutionary concepts require beings to be descended from humans to be humans; creationary concepts hardly require that.[/qs]
Adam is presented in the Bible as being the father of humankind, the first through which all of humankind stems from. So God could not have created humans also on other planets. At the very least it could only be other types of life. (which as said above I would find extremely difficult to reconcile with the Biblical truth)

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 Message 9 by Blue Jay, posted 01-04-2010 12:40 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2010 1:13 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 18 by Blue Jay, posted 01-05-2010 11:04 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-03-2010 7:02 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 14 of 42 (541725)
01-05-2010 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ZenMonkey
01-05-2010 12:54 PM


Because I think abiogenesis is impossible, the numbers don't make a difference for me really.
And for why God created such a vast universe, I think the answer is pretty straightforward you just have to look at all the posts from theists and atheists alike about how they marvel at it's beauty. Perhaps this was God's intent when creating it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-05-2010 12:54 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-05-2010 10:56 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 15 of 42 (541726)
01-05-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
01-05-2010 1:13 PM


I'm not an expert on the incarnation, but maybe it has something to do with him having a human mother.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2010 1:13 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 19 of 42 (541730)
01-05-2010 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ZenMonkey
01-05-2010 10:56 PM


I don't know where you want to go with this, but it's not all about the naked eye. We can see awesome things with telescopes also.
Another aspect is that our knowledge of physics would be limited without all this universe to investigate. I is my understanding that God wants us to fully investigate his creation as much as we can, and a lot of this knowledge would be inaccessible to us.
Besides, it's all speculation. God doesn't really need to have a reason to do it. Since we have a lot we ask ''Why so many ?'' but I would bet if we only had a couple of stars in a tiny universe, we would ask ''Why so few ?''

This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 22 of 42 (541733)
01-05-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Blue Jay
01-05-2010 11:04 PM


Yeah well the cross+romans+wood thing was just an example. The whole idea would be ''Why would a human's death on a cross on another planet have anything to do with my Na'vi sins here ?''
Besides, I can easily imagine how someone could integrate sentient extra terrestial life to christianity. If we wanted to, christianity could be adapted to anything I guess. My point is that it would require a modified theology of a modified religion, which wouldn't really look like christianity anymore.
I can't find where the Bible actually says this.
It says Adam is commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, and it calls Eve the "mother of all living," but it doesn't say that Adam is the father of all humans.
I think you read that into the text.
1cor 15:45 presents Adam as ''the first man''. The exact meaning of the greek word translated here to 'first' would be needed I guess, but in a plain understanding it means Adam was the first human to have existed. And since God finishes off his creation with Adam and Eve, it doesn't leave a lot of leverage to interpret that actually God went and created other humans elsewhere.
If by any chance the word for 'first' has a linealogical implication then Adam is pretty straightforwardly presented as the grand-father of every humans. (I don't know shizzles about greek though so this is a random guess on my part)
Also, Rom 5:12 says that death came into the world through one man (Adam) and that because of this death spread to all men, which is pretty straightforward that Adam was all humanity's ancestor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Blue Jay, posted 01-05-2010 11:04 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2010 3:11 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 25 by Blue Jay, posted 01-06-2010 9:19 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 26 of 42 (542079)
01-07-2010 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Blue Jay
01-06-2010 9:19 AM


Sorry for no response, being occupied lately with the restart of university.
I'm viewing that this would turn out to be prety theological in that we would have to go in depth in what is sin, sinful nature, human nature, lineage, soul etc. etc. only to end up that the Bible totally never speaks of aliens or even alludes to other sentient life, but that perhaps it could be inserted in the Gaps of biblical truth. Which is what I was meaning when I said that I can see how someone could reconcile sentient life with christianity.
The whole issue would be to what extent can this be done, and I don't find that all important. (and as maybe you have seen, I'm not the best at analysing scripture especially in english)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Blue Jay, posted 01-06-2010 9:19 AM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 27 of 42 (542085)
01-07-2010 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
01-06-2010 3:11 AM


Re: First man
Hi ICANT
The first mistake most people make is tht Adam is a proper name.
Adam is simply the transliteration of the Hebrew word for man, mankind.
A transliteration is when you substitute the English letter for the Hebrew letter.
So Adam isn't a proper name. By saying this, are you implying Adam was never a real physical person/human ?
Now as to the man refered to in 1 Cor. 15:45.
Pay close attention to what Paul said: "The first man Adam was made a living soul;"
The Greek word translated Adam in this verse means the red earth.
So the man Paul was talking about was made from the earth.
He also was made a living soul.
The only man that fits that discription is found in Genesis 2:7 which says:
his man was formed of the dust of the ground before any plant, animal or fowl was formed. He was the first creature made by God.
Agreed, this is the man which Paul is referring to.
The man bluejay said was to replenish the earth was created after all animals, plants, and fowls, at the same time as the female. They were created in the image/likeness of God. This man was not formed from the dust of the ground and the woman was not created from a rib taken from the man. They were spoke into existence. They were never placed in a garden and forbidden to eat from any tree. In fact they were told they could eat from all trees.
This man and woman is the ancestor of modern humans.
I hope this doesn't muddy the water too much for you.
Well my waters are still crystal-clear, but your waters seem from my POV to be pretty muddied. The easiest way I think for me to understand your picture of genesis 1-2 would be for you to recopy it here, but each time it says ''man'' you replace it with:
man1 if it is the man created from the dust (before all the rest)
man2 if it is the man spoken into existence. (after all the rest)
Same thing for:
women1: women spoken into existence
women2: if there is another women in the picture.

This message is a reply to:
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