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Author Topic:   Sentient life in the universe
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 16 of 42 (541727)
01-05-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by slevesque
01-05-2010 10:02 PM


slevesque writes:

And for why God created such a vast universe, I think the answer is pretty straightforward you just have to look at all the posts from theists and atheists alike about how they marvel at it's beauty. Perhaps this was God's intent when creating it ?

I wonder. From any given point on Earth, there are at best about 2500 stars visible to the naked eye. All told there are fewer than 10,000 total stars that can be seen unaided. That's such a small fraction of the total number of stars even in our own galaxy as to be negligable. Is your assertion that the entire universe, most of which can never be directly seen by human eyes, exists just because from our vantage point on the outer edge of one arm of this particular galaxy the few stars that we can see look pretty at night?

I include two versions of the following picture for reference. It's worth looking at in detail, even if by necessity the full jpeg that the thumbnail links to is pretty huge. Enjoy.

ABE: As bluejay points out, the thumbnail for the full version still loads as a ridiculously huge image. Here's a link instead.

Edited by ZenMonkey, : Deleted thumbnail of giant jpeg.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by slevesque, posted 01-05-2010 10:02 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1400 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 42 (541728)
01-05-2010 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Anquetas
01-02-2010 6:08 PM


Anquetas writes:

Imagine that there are sentient beings, which are advanced that we are...


Native Americans either tried to assimilate into our culture or died out. And I don't recall a single white society ever doing a ghost dance.

If history has taught us one thing, it's that when two cultures meet for the first time the less advance one will either be enslaved or destroyed. Perhaps it will only be then that I will die happy knowing christianity has gone belly up.


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 18 of 42 (541729)
01-05-2010 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by slevesque
01-05-2010 11:21 AM


Hi, Slevesque.

slevesque writes:

Adam is presented in the Bible as being the father of humankind, the first through which all of humankind stems from.

I can't find where the Bible actually says this.

It says Adam is commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, and it calls Eve the "mother of all living," but it doesn't say that Adam is the father of all humans.

I think you read that into the text.

-----

slevesque writes:

(Something like: My son has died for your sins, but it was on another planet. but I'll tell you how it happened their is this thing called a cross, which is made out of wood, which is a material which come from trees, which is a plant on this planet. And these crosses were used by romans, who were a nation of human, who were conquering all of the known world, under Caesar, etc. ????)

First, if these aliens and their world are substantially similar to us and ours, this is a moot point.

Second, even if wood and Rome and crosses are not intuitive for aliens, it's not all that different conceptually from explaining the same thing to Taoists in Taiwan (which I have done, by the way)... would you allow me to cite this as evidence that Jesus didn't die for the sins of Chinese people?

Third, why assume that the aliens can't understand the Gospel? If, as I suggested, they were created by the same God, why would He have made them incapable of understanding something so vital to their eternal destiny?

Fourth, it's not as if we really understand how the Atonement works either, so what difference would a few logistical concerns about explaining the Romans' method of murder make for the factuality or importance of Jesus's sacrifice?

Fifth, one could make the case that the Atonement of Christ only applies to this world (John 1:29, John 3:16, John 4:42, John 12:47, and 1 John 2:2 say the atonement of Christ was "for the sins of the world"). Under this model, other worlds may have their own Saviors.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by slevesque, posted 01-05-2010 11:21 AM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2749 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 19 of 42 (541730)
01-05-2010 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ZenMonkey
01-05-2010 10:56 PM


I don't know where you want to go with this, but it's not all about the naked eye. We can see awesome things with telescopes also.

Another aspect is that our knowledge of physics would be limited without all this universe to investigate. I is my understanding that God wants us to fully investigate his creation as much as we can, and a lot of this knowledge would be inaccessible to us.

Besides, it's all speculation. God doesn't really need to have a reason to do it. Since we have a lot we ask ''Why so many ?'' but I would bet if we only had a couple of stars in a tiny universe, we would ask ''Why so few ?''


This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 20 of 42 (541731)
01-05-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ZenMonkey
01-05-2010 10:56 PM


Hi, ZenMonkey.

Can you delete that picture now?

Even when you use the thumbnail codes, it still loads the full jpeg at first each time you open the thread. That takes a long time, and it spreads the window out so that it's wider than the screen.

Maybe you could just use a hyperlink to the picture elsewhere on the web?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2619 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 21 of 42 (541732)
01-05-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Blue Jay
01-05-2010 11:13 PM


Fixed it.
Giant jpeg gone, replaced by easy link. Thanks.
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2749 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 22 of 42 (541733)
01-05-2010 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Blue Jay
01-05-2010 11:04 PM


Yeah well the cross+romans+wood thing was just an example. The whole idea would be ''Why would a human's death on a cross on another planet have anything to do with my Na'vi sins here ?''

Besides, I can easily imagine how someone could integrate sentient extra terrestial life to christianity. If we wanted to, christianity could be adapted to anything I guess. My point is that it would require a modified theology of a modified religion, which wouldn't really look like christianity anymore.

I can't find where the Bible actually says this.

It says Adam is commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, and it calls Eve the "mother of all living," but it doesn't say that Adam is the father of all humans.

I think you read that into the text.

1cor 15:45 presents Adam as ''the first man''. The exact meaning of the greek word translated here to 'first' would be needed I guess, but in a plain understanding it means Adam was the first human to have existed. And since God finishes off his creation with Adam and Eve, it doesn't leave a lot of leverage to interpret that actually God went and created other humans elsewhere.

If by any chance the word for 'first' has a linealogical implication then Adam is pretty straightforwardly presented as the grand-father of every humans. (I don't know shizzles about greek though so this is a random guess on my part)

Also, Rom 5:12 says that death came into the world through one man (Adam) and that because of this death spread to all men, which is pretty straightforward that Adam was all humanity's ancestor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Blue Jay, posted 01-05-2010 11:04 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 01-06-2010 3:11 AM slevesque has responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14818
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 23 of 42 (541735)
01-06-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by slevesque
01-05-2010 10:06 PM


quote:

I'm not an expert on the incarnation, but maybe it has something to do with him having a human mother.

Since Mary is only the mother of the human Jesus, I can't see how that could possibly interfere with other incarnations. It sounds like you're setting an arbitrary limit on what God can do.


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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 24 of 42 (541741)
01-06-2010 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by slevesque
01-05-2010 11:42 PM


Re: First man
Hi slevesque,

slevesque writes:

(I don't know shizzles about greek though so this is a random guess on my part)

The first mistake most people make is tht Adam is a proper name.

Adam is simply the transliteration of the Hebrew word for man, mankind.

A transliteration is when you substitute the English letter for the Hebrew letter.

Now as to the man refered to in 1 Cor. 15:45.

Pay close attention to what Paul said: "The first man Adam was made a living soul;"

The Greek word translated Adam in this verse means the red earth.

So the man Paul was talking about was made from the earth.
He also was made a living soul.

The only man that fits that discription is found in Genesis 2:7 which says:

quote:
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This man was formed of the dust of the ground before any plant, animal or fowl was formed. He was the first creature made by God.

The man bluejay said was to replenish the earth was created after all animals, plants, and fowls, at the same time as the female. They were created in the image/likeness of God. This man was not formed from the dust of the ground and the woman was not created from a rib taken from the man. They were spoke into existence. They were never placed in a garden and forbidden to eat from any tree. In fact they were told they could eat from all trees.

This man and woman is the ancestor of modern humans.

I hope this doesn't muddy the water too much for you.

slevesque writes:

Also, Rom 5:12 says that death came into the world through one man (Adam) and that because of this death spread to all men, which is pretty straightforward that Adam was all humanity's ancestor.

Death entered into the world because the man that was formed from the dust of the ground and placed in the garden and forbidden to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil disobeyed God and ate the fruit.

Now as to the OP and extra-terrestrial life.

Extra-terrestrial life does exist. There millions of life forms that are not of this earth. In the Bible they are called angels, demons and the devil.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 25 of 42 (541780)
01-06-2010 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by slevesque
01-05-2010 11:42 PM


Hi, Slevesque.

I'm not going to put my scriptural knowledge up against ICANT's, but I did read 1 Cor 15 after your original post.

Here is the NIV text of that scripture:

quote:
44 If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

It isn't really talking about Adam as the first of all human beings: it's talking about two different men (bodies), and identifying them as the first and the second.

-----

slevesque writes:

Also, Rom 5:12 says that death came into the world through one man (Adam) and that because of this death spread to all men, which is pretty straightforward that Adam was all humanity's ancestor.

That's a little bit oblique, don't you think?

It says, "death came into the world." Doesn't the world include animals and plants? So, doesn't Romans 5:12 already have Adam's Fall bringing death to things to which he isn't related?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by slevesque, posted 01-05-2010 11:42 PM slevesque has responded

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2749 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 26 of 42 (542079)
01-07-2010 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Blue Jay
01-06-2010 9:19 AM


Sorry for no response, being occupied lately with the restart of university.

I'm viewing that this would turn out to be prety theological in that we would have to go in depth in what is sin, sinful nature, human nature, lineage, soul etc. etc. only to end up that the Bible totally never speaks of aliens or even alludes to other sentient life, but that perhaps it could be inserted in the Gaps of biblical truth. Which is what I was meaning when I said that I can see how someone could reconcile sentient life with christianity.

The whole issue would be to what extent can this be done, and I don't find that all important. (and as maybe you have seen, I'm not the best at analysing scripture especially in english)


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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2749 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 27 of 42 (542085)
01-07-2010 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
01-06-2010 3:11 AM


Re: First man
Hi ICANT

The first mistake most people make is tht Adam is a proper name.

Adam is simply the transliteration of the Hebrew word for man, mankind.

A transliteration is when you substitute the English letter for the Hebrew letter.

So Adam isn't a proper name. By saying this, are you implying Adam was never a real physical person/human ?

Now as to the man refered to in 1 Cor. 15:45.

Pay close attention to what Paul said: "The first man Adam was made a living soul;"

The Greek word translated Adam in this verse means the red earth.

So the man Paul was talking about was made from the earth.
He also was made a living soul.

The only man that fits that discription is found in Genesis 2:7 which says:

his man was formed of the dust of the ground before any plant, animal or fowl was formed. He was the first creature made by God.

Agreed, this is the man which Paul is referring to.

The man bluejay said was to replenish the earth was created after all animals, plants, and fowls, at the same time as the female. They were created in the image/likeness of God. This man was not formed from the dust of the ground and the woman was not created from a rib taken from the man. They were spoke into existence. They were never placed in a garden and forbidden to eat from any tree. In fact they were told they could eat from all trees.

This man and woman is the ancestor of modern humans.

I hope this doesn't muddy the water too much for you.

Well my waters are still crystal-clear, but your waters seem from my POV to be pretty muddied. The easiest way I think for me to understand your picture of genesis 1-2 would be for you to recopy it here, but each time it says ''man'' you replace it with:

man1 if it is the man created from the dust (before all the rest)

man2 if it is the man spoken into existence. (after all the rest)

Same thing for:

women1: women spoken into existence

women2: if there is another women in the picture.


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Zoinks
Junior Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 05-02-2010


Message 28 of 42 (558578)
05-02-2010 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ZenMonkey
01-05-2010 12:54 PM


Alien life is mentioned in the Bible.

Ezzeikel Chapter 1 is the best example.

Athiests suggest that the universe exists as a fluke. If we are alone then there is every possibility we are here by chance.

If we have a universe full of Alien life, that suggets that the universe is intelligenty designed.


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 29 of 42 (558605)
05-02-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Zoinks
05-02-2010 1:41 PM


Hi, Zoinks.

Welcome to EvC!

Zoinks writes:

If we are alone then there is every possibility we are here by chance.

If we have a universe full of Alien life, that suggets that the universe is intelligenty designed.

This doesn't follow at all.

Lots of life could easily point to a very high abundance of suitable locations for life to arise naturally.

Likewise, having only 1 planet with life on it could easily point to a Creator who either takes His time and hasn't gotten to creating life a second time yet, or likes to make myriads of planets and stars with no life on them.

I think you'll find that there will be strong disagreements about this statement, no matter which of the debate you take: you'll find just as many creationists arguing that we are the only life that God created as you will atheists arguing that there should be numberless concourses of living things throughout the universe.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2298 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 30 of 42 (558608)
05-03-2010 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Zoinks
05-02-2010 1:41 PM


Alien life is mentioned in the Bible.

Ezzeikel Chapter 1 is the best example.

One would have to severely stretch his imagination to assume that

KJV Ez 1:5 writes:

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

was an alien life form. Sounds more like an LSD trip (hallucination)

Edited by bluescat48, : syntax


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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