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Author Topic:   Why'd you do it that way, God?
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 104 of 137 (541791)
01-06-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Adequate
01-05-2010 1:36 AM


Falling came after the fall.
I do deny your impossible reality.
In my Scientific reality (Go Team Science!):

#1 Creation of matter and energy is impossible.
(So a "God" is needed to explain why we see matter.)
#2 Everything degrades down. Nothing evolves up to more a more complex system. (Evolution "up" is impossible)
#3 The Cosmos is headed to death, not life.
(Again, Evolution as a source of life is contrary to Science. Evolution as a way to cope with decay and death is valid. Life DOES change to cope with a decay in the environment. But no NEW information is created or added.)

The three laws of Thermodynamics
(There is a bit of Science/Religion about the big-bang here...but considering the source...)
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/6e.html

Edited by -Sky-, : for the team


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2010 1:36 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 11:21 AM Sky-Writing has responded
 Message 107 by Peepul, posted 01-06-2010 12:46 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded
 Message 108 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-06-2010 1:24 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 105 of 137 (541792)
01-06-2010 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dr Adequate
01-05-2010 1:33 AM


No death before the fall
(1) Where?

1. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

"The wages [penalty] of sin is death"

"without the shedding of blood there is no remission [forgiveness] of sin"

"But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his lust , and enticed. Then when lust is conceived, it brings forth sin, and sin when it is finished brings forth death".

Finally: "The last enemy to be destroyed is Death"

So what would this "enemy" be doing in the original Creation?
Would death be part of the evo-naturalistic-darwinian-god plan?
Why would enemies be special-created from the start?

Some people follow that reasoning, but wouldn't it be at least alluded to rather than clearly stated as the enemy?

Edited by -Sky-, : .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-05-2010 1:33 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 109 of 137 (541838)
01-06-2010 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by New Cat's Eye
01-06-2010 11:21 AM


Re: Falling came after the fall.

If creation of matter is impossible then God couldn't have created it and if god did create it then creation of matter is not impossible.

I didn't say the creation of matter and energy was impossible, Science said that.

But really, all the energy (of which matter is a part) was present at the Big Band and it simply changed shape and size. It wasn't created ex nihilo.

I don't know who this "But Really" is or where he publishes.

#2 Everything degrades down. Nothing evolves up to more a more complex system. (Evolution "up" is impossible)

That isn't true. Simply precipitating salt crystal by evaporating the water out of a solution increases the complexity of that system.

With one room of vapor, and one a vacuum with a crystal of salt in it, the second has far less energy, and infinite less complexity.

And only closed systems must increase entropy, not "everything".

I don't know that particular law.

#3 The Cosmos is headed to death, not life.

We don't know that. Odds are that there's another planet out there evolving life right now.

The three laws of Thermodynamics

Those laws are about the movement of heat and are not applicable to the evolution of biological systems.

Energy is energy by any name.

The Laws of Science, don't apply to "the evolution of biological systems."

We agree completely!!!

.

Edited by -Sky-, : .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 11:21 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 3:09 PM Sky-Writing has responded
 Message 114 by Huntard, posted 01-06-2010 3:13 PM Sky-Writing has responded

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 116 of 137 (541867)
01-06-2010 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by New Cat's Eye
01-06-2010 3:09 PM


Re: Falling came after the fall.
Are you conceding the point that god is needed to explain why we see matter?

See, we do agree, since that was my original point.

Science says no matter or energy can be created or destroyed.
So there is no "natural" laws to allow for matter to exist.
So there must have been a Creator that is outside of these laws.
That would be the same Person who "wrote" the laws.
Unless there is a Number of beings or persons on the task.
Which Jesus did refer to.

Even the Big-Bang Theory admits that all known laws do not apply to the time of Creation. They can't. Says Science.

And the Pope.

Edited by -Sky-, : .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 3:33 PM Sky-Writing has responded

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 118 of 137 (541883)
01-06-2010 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Huntard
01-06-2010 3:13 PM


Re: Falling came after the fall.
Actually, energy is created all the time. So is matter. The sun creates heaps of energy, for instance.

or

First Law of Thermodynamics

The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one system to another in many forms. Also, it can not be created or destroyed.

In the context of chemical reactions and process, it may be more common to deal with situations where work is done on the system rather than by it.


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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 119 of 137 (541887)
01-06-2010 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by New Cat's Eye
01-06-2010 3:33 PM


Re: Falling came after the fall.
There was never a point in time in the Universe where the 'energy' did not exist.

I'm not versed in that Religion. I admire your faith.

According to Sciences Third law of thermodynamics the normal state of the universe is zero energy. Zero matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 3:33 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 5:14 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 121 of 137 (541889)
01-06-2010 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by New Cat's Eye
01-06-2010 3:09 PM


Re: Falling came after the fall.
So there's your increase in complexity that you said was impossible.

I said "not natural."
With God all things are possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-06-2010 5:19 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded
 Message 123 by Parasomnium, posted 01-06-2010 5:52 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded
 Message 126 by Taz, posted 01-07-2010 2:39 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 127 of 137 (542105)
01-07-2010 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by kbertsche
01-07-2010 2:31 PM


Re: Gradualistic-ing
"David's point is that on our own, in light of the cosmos, we are insignificant. "

That's actually your point, rather than David's. He was aware of the size of the sky and the amazing size of cloud formations. And the sheer voulume of birds that could fill the sky on occasion.

And of the thousands of animals that could fill the sky, he was amazed that God would talk to us.

But lets not pretend that he got stoned like Sagan and dreamed of flying past other planets or galaxies.

He was just amazed that the Creator of the Sky and the clouds and the light disks and dots had time for man as well.

I really, really, doubt he ever felt insignificant.
Moses maybe. He felt ill equiped. But David felt Honored and blessed. I think he felt very significant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2010 2:31 PM kbertsche has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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