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Member (Idle past 3557 days) Posts: 400 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Why'd you do it that way, God? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If creation of matter is impossible then God couldn't have created it and if god did create it then creation of matter is not impossible. But really, all the energy (of which matter is a part) was present at the Big Band and it simply changed shape and size. It wasn't created ex nihilo.
That isn't true. Simply precipitating salt crystal by evaporating the water out of a solution increases the complexity of that system. And only closed systems must increase entropy, not "everything".
We don't know that. Odds are that there's another planet out there evolving life right now.
Those laws are about the movement of heat and are not applicable to the evolution of biological systems.
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Peepul Member (Idle past 3766 days) Posts: 206 Joined: |
quote: but then a "God" needs explanation - oops, problem not solved. Don't come back and say God is eternal, outside time and therefore does not need an explanation. I could claim the same for a non-supernatural precursor of the universe. Neither of us would be justified. What happened before the big bang, if anything, is currently unknown. That's all we can say about it. quote: Reality shows us otherwise. You're right within a closed system such as the universe as a whole, but thermodynamics does not prevent parts of that system from getting more 'complex' at the expense of others. We see evolution of complex life from simple life in the fossil record. quote: Eventually you may be right that the cosmos is heading towards death, depending on the ultimate fate of the Universe. But there are billions of years ahead of us before that becomes the case - far longer than the universe has already been in existence. The sun is likely to keep shining pretty much as it is for another 4 billion years or so. So, the eventual fate of the universe is irrelevant for what we see now and will see in the conceivable future. 'Devolution but No NEW information' is the latest mantra of creationists. It has nothing to do with science. It can only survive while creationists define information in an unmeasurable way or by diktat as something that needs intellect to create. It will go the way of all previous creationist mantras when even creationists are forced to admit that their theories make no sense.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16112 Joined: |
Agreed. This is one good reason why "creation" is a fairy-story for children.
But this is, of course, not true.
So people keep telling me. Curiously enough, all these people have one thing in common: gross scientific illiteracy. Scientists, meanwhile, keep telling me stuff like this: Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. So the question I have to ask myself is this: who knows more about science --- scientists, or people who make stuff up? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Sky-Writing Member (Idle past 3900 days) Posts: 162 From: Milwaukee, WI, United States Joined: |
I didn't say the creation of matter and energy was impossible, Science said that.
I don't know who this "But Really" is or where he publishes. #2 Everything degrades down. Nothing evolves up to more a more complex system. (Evolution "up" is impossible)
With one room of vapor, and one a vacuum with a crystal of salt in it, the second has far less energy, and infinite less complexity.
I don't know that particular law.
We don't know that. Odds are that there's another planet out there evolving life right now. The three laws of Thermodynamics
Energy is energy by any name. The Laws of Science, don't apply to "the evolution of biological systems." We agree completely!!! . Edited by -Sky-, : .
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greyseal Member (Idle past 2610 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
You're saying the pope has impirical evidence on the existence of god, and hasn't shown it to the rest of the world? That's pretty mean spirited of him...
Yup, a few clever people do something extraordinary, and then a whole mass of clever people make sure the first lot aren't pulling the wool over our eyes. Thanks to them, we have airplanes, electricity, antibiotics, automobiles, food so most of the planet doesn't have to worry about bad crops, computers, ipods, mobile phones and rocket-ships.
Yeah, that's why we believe the earth is still flat, that it's the center of the universe, that the Sun orbits the Earth and that cats are bad luck and bring the plague.
really? It's a huge ego to look up at the sky and limitless stars and realise that our star is pretty middling as stars go, that our planet is only one of many around our star, which is one among 400 billion stars in our galaxy, that our galaxy is only one amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies? that is a huge ego? I thought rather that the idea that a creator who created the whole universe just for you to run around in, and that your sort of person (who believes in and obeys the creator) was the most important (type of) person in it - I thought that meant you had a big ego.
I agree whole-heartedly.
Now that is ego - you claim science knows nothing, nothing about the universe - but that your sky-daddy does, he knows everything - and by extension, so do you. What a grand seat you have, at the right hand of the most important creature in the universe. How humble your abode, how genteel.
It's nice to see that you had so much of substance to talk about, so many valid, interesting and captivating points, that you didn't have to stoop to name-calling and belittlement.
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greyseal Member (Idle past 2610 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
Catholic, I take it you're actually religious, but I applaud you for your sensibilities in the face of glaring, boiling ignorance. A lot (a whole smegging bunch) of fundies blurt that "entropy always increases" line, and expect that to be a huge snag in the whole idea of evolution and life - and to have one of the fundiest come out and say that they don't even KNOW about that law (when you put it in straight words) just puts the cherry on top. for sky, who obviously hasn't done his/her homework, the entropy in a closed system will always increase - this appears to be a solid law for a universe like ours. If you haven't noticed, sky, the Earth is NOT a closed system. I can guarantee you that if you stay up all night thinking about it, the answer will dawn on you in the end.
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greyseal Member (Idle past 2610 days) Posts: 464 Joined: |
ordinarily, my good doctor, I would agree with you, as MOST people are far more complicated and hold far more information in them now than when they were conceived. with the case of sky, however, I have my doubts...
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You don't seem to have any intention of learning anything but are just out to have some fun, no?
Are you conceding the point that god is needed to explain why we see matter?
Assuming you're correct, if I take that vacuum with a crystal of salt in it and then vaporize it, I would have increased the complexity. So there's your increase in complexity that you said was impossible. And you know what, I would have had to input energy into that system, which would mean its no longer closed.
Its called The Second Law of Thermodymanics.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about, do you? Could you define the word "energy" for me please? You aren't talking about an amount of work, are you?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1043 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Actually, energy is created all the time. So is matter. The sun creates heaps of energy, for instance.
That's the second law of thermodynamics.
You just said you didn't know the second law.
He didn't say that. He said the laws of thermodynamics aren't aplicable to evolution, because evolution doesn't deal with the movement of heat. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm not that religious... My sensibility flies right out the window when they show that they don't care to learn anything, but would rather be combative. Then I proceed to tell them to go ahead and fuck right off.
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Sky-Writing Member (Idle past 3900 days) Posts: 162 From: Milwaukee, WI, United States Joined: |
See, we do agree, since that was my original point. Science says no matter or energy can be created or destroyed. Even the Big-Bang Theory admits that all known laws do not apply to the time of Creation. They can't. Says Science. And the Pope. Edited by -Sky-, : .
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
My bad... I left the word NOT out of there. I meant: "Are you conceding the point that god is NOT needed to explain why we see matter? But apparently you think the other way.
Um, no scienctific laws prevent matter from existing. There was never a point in time in the Universe where the 'energy' did not exist. And there is no point in time before the Big Bang so no need to go there.
This conclusion is based on false premises that the first law of thermodynamics prevents matter from existing without outside intervention. Which is actually a hilarious position because it requires all those scientists to be complete fools in not noticing that in the first place. And yet, they put a man on the moon.
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Sky-Writing Member (Idle past 3900 days) Posts: 162 From: Milwaukee, WI, United States Joined: |
or First Law of Thermodynamics The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one system to another in many forms. Also, it can not be created or destroyed. In the context of chemical reactions and process, it may be more common to deal with situations where work is done on the system rather than by it.
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Sky-Writing Member (Idle past 3900 days) Posts: 162 From: Milwaukee, WI, United States Joined: |
I'm not versed in that Religion. I admire your faith. According to Sciences Third law of thermodynamics the normal state of the universe is zero energy. Zero matter.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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You don't seem to know very much about science at all, even so far as to misunderstand its entire modus operandi to having anything to do with faith at all. Take this one for example:
Swing... and a miss. at least read the wiki page on it, geez. But alas, we're no longer even talking about the topic of this thread and you've shown that you have no intention of trying to learn anything but would rather jsut have pointless arguments so: Fuck off, and enjoy wallowing in your ignorance. /*tips hat
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