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Author Topic:   What was Godís plan behind Creation and why does he need one?
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3078 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 1 of 174 (541748)
01-06-2010 6:14 AM


If God is some kind of all-powerful master of the universe, what was his purpose in creating life and what exactly was his plan for us?

Why would God create life for a purpose? Surely if an all-powerful creator wanted to achieve something, it could do so instantly without requiring thousands of years of human labour Ė and fallibility.

I could understand if God created life because he is lonely, or just out of interest to see what would happen, but the idea of creating life for a purpose with specific rules and regulations, and then getting all upset when we fail to adhere to those rules, seems bizarre to me.

To consider how strange this is, imagine if we humans created a completely new species and demanded of this new species that it should follow certain rules. Yet, at the same time, we gave it free-will and an inquisitive mind of itís own and consequently it refused to follow our rules or failed to understand them. Would it not be highly peculiar if our reaction were to blame the species that we were entirely responsible for creating, rather than blame our own motives and designs?


Replies to this message:
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 Message 48 by hooah212002, posted 01-13-2010 7:19 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded
 Message 119 by 3DSOC, posted 01-31-2010 2:53 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

  
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Message 2 of 174 (541775)
01-06-2010 8:53 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the What was Godís plan behind Creation and why does he need one? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Minority Report
Member (Idle past 1289 days)
Posts: 66
From: N.S.W Australia
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 3 of 174 (542190)
01-08-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-06-2010 6:14 AM


God's purpose & why the rules
Hello Jumped up chimpanzee,
Admittedly I am a not completely clear on the purpose for God creating us. However I suspect it was due to God wanting to share His love, and for us to experience everything that He experiences (ie beauty, joy, creativity etc), though I have no list of scriptual verses to support this as yet. If this is the case, then is this a good enough reason for you?

Life is wonderful, don't you think? This world that we live in is beautiful, bizarre and complex. If these are all attributes which God posesses and finds joy in, then would you blame him for wanting others to experience them?

Regarding rules. Perhapps the easiest way to answer this question is to ask if you have any children?

Disregarding the reasons for parents having kids for a moment, most parents do expect their kids to obey certain rules. These may be for the childs own safety & other reasons, or to train them for their future adult life; to balance their own desires with regards to others etc. Yes kids do have minds of their own, but we do not accept the kid's selfishness as being the parents fault just because the parents chose to have the kid. Free will means exactly that. We are completely free to do what we will. But sometimes this is not good for us or others to do so, hense some rules need to be set out, for our own good & others, and to keep the peace in general.

If we did not have free will then perhapps we would be mindless machines like robots, only doing what we were programmed to do. This would not be a suitable creature for God to share with. On the other hand, creatures with free will, which are suitable to experience all that God experiences, can unwittingly choose all those things which lead to death, destruction, fighting etc. If God created us & not left us guidelines for healthy living, then you would be here asking the question "If God loves us, then why didn't He tell us what is good & bad for us?" Complain because there are rules, and then complain if there are none.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-06-2010 6:14 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 8:48 AM Minority Report has not yet responded
 Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-08-2010 9:11 AM Minority Report has responded
 Message 12 by Larni, posted 01-08-2010 11:28 AM Minority Report has responded
 Message 13 by Blue Jay, posted 01-08-2010 12:58 PM Minority Report has responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 4 of 174 (542193)
01-08-2010 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Minority Report
01-08-2010 8:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I personally find this a rather interseting take on the subject. Especially given the percentage of planet earth that is completely inhospitable to humans either due to weather or animals that will destroy us. If this planet was made just for us, why are there so many areas where we cannot survive?


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Minority Report, posted 01-08-2010 8:28 AM Minority Report has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-08-2010 9:15 AM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 107 by Calypso, posted 01-29-2010 10:58 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3078 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 5 of 174 (542196)
01-08-2010 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Minority Report
01-08-2010 8:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Hi MR and thanks for your response

Life is wonderful, don't you think? This world that we live in is beautiful, bizarre and complex. If these are all attributes which God posesses and finds joy in, then would you blame him for wanting others to experience them?

That's reasonable, I suppose. But it's not really making us for a purpose to achieve anything. And were we made as an afterthought to enjoy the beauty of the rivers, oceans and other life, or were we the first idea, and the other things were made subsequently for our enjoyment?

Regarding rules. Perhapps the easiest way to answer this question is to ask if you have any children?

No, I don't. But I have a rough idea of what they are.

Seriously, though, I don't think that the way we implement rules for children is anything like the same as the way God supposedly implements his rules. Certainly not the same as the punishments for disobedience. I don't think anyone would consider it acceptable to burn their children for eternity or drown them in a flood. Also, we don't quite yet have the ability to completely design our children, so they need guideance, whereas God supposedly did.

If God created us & not left us guidelines for healthy living, then you would be here asking the question "If God loves us, then why didn't He tell us what is good & bad for us?" Complain because there are rules, and then complain if there are none.

Take the commandments supposedly given by God to Moses: "Thou shalt not kill", etc. Whether you think that humans had evolved over hundreds of thousands of years or you believe that God made us a couple of thousand years before he gave those commandments, do you not think that we had already worked out that we needed to get on with each other for our own benefit? When Moses passed on those commandments it wasn't to a crowd who were in the midst of stabbing each other to death. There wouldn't have been a crowd there in the first place if that's how humans behaved before they were given any rules.

I still can't see any rules etc that are supposedly attributed to God that we couldn't work out for ourselves - and almost certainly had already done so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Minority Report, posted 01-08-2010 8:28 AM Minority Report has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3078 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 6 of 174 (542198)
01-08-2010 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
01-08-2010 8:48 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I personally find this a rather interseting take on the subject. Especially given the percentage of planet earth that is completely inhospitable to humans either due to weather or animals that will destroy us.

Ah, but you're forgetting that all animals were vegetarians and the weather was always sunny before Eve bit that apple!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 8:48 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 9:46 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 7 of 174 (542202)
01-08-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-08-2010 9:15 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Even so, there is still a significant portion (almost 3/4) of the earth where the earth itself will chew us up and spit us out. i am trying to find the actual statistics on the percentage of the earth that is hospitable. I know 70% at least is covered in water and the last I checked, humans aren't known for their aquatic capabilities. Then, you've got the other less-than-hospitable areas, such as the antarctic.

Are we to assume that because this broad ate an apple, god made all these areas inhospitable, and they were not this way before "the fall"?


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-08-2010 9:15 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Huntard, posted 01-08-2010 9:54 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 8 of 174 (542203)
01-08-2010 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
01-08-2010 9:46 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
hooah212002 writes:

Are we to assume that because this broad ate an apple, god made all these areas inhospitable, and they were not this way before "the fall"?


Pretty much, yes. The flood was probably another big contributor to that fact.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 9:46 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 10:01 AM Huntard has responded

    
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 9 of 174 (542204)
01-08-2010 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Huntard
01-08-2010 9:54 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I guess this IS the Faith and Belief section, so anything is possible......


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Huntard, posted 01-08-2010 9:54 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Huntard, posted 01-08-2010 10:08 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 431 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 10 of 174 (542205)
01-08-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by hooah212002
01-08-2010 10:01 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
hooah212002 writes:

I guess this IS the Faith and Belief section, so anything is possible......


Indeed. That's the risk of posting in this section, pretty much anything goes, since magic is allowed.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 10:01 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Minority Report
Member (Idle past 1289 days)
Posts: 66
From: N.S.W Australia
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 11 of 174 (542221)
01-08-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-08-2010 9:11 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Hello Jumped up chimpanzee,

were we made as an afterthought to enjoy the beauty of the rivers, oceans and other life, or were we the first idea, and the other things were made subsequently for our enjoyment?

It appears that everything was created for a purpose, and as far as I can tell, the world was created to acheive God's purposes for us. So yes you can say to an extent that we were the first idea, and the world was created for us, though there is more to it than this.

it's not really making us for a purpose to achieve anything

I suspect you are referring to some christian doctrine or other here. If so could you give me bit more detail to work on? But in the meantime......
One of the purposes we were made is to praise God. This may sound a little booring to a non beleiver, and may make God look like He has a big ego which needs stroking. Which is why I hesitate to submitt it as a purpose, but it is after all an important part of a christians life, and perhapps should be discussed in more detail.

I don't think that the way we implement rules for children is anything like the same as the way God supposedly implements his rules. Certainly not the same as the punishments for disobedience.

I know it is not entirely the same. I meerly presented children as a starting analogy to assist with explaining some of the reasons for Gods rules. There are of course other reasons why God gave us the 'Law' so to speak.

I don't think anyone would consider it acceptable to burn their children for eternity or drown them in a flood.

Yes most people would find this unacceptable, when presented in that way. But put into its correct context however, might be an entirely different story. Douglas Wilson covers this point in his book 'Letter from a christian citizen. A response to Letter to a Christian nation by Sam Harris'. (It might be going off topic for me to discuss this point here in more detail, so I'll let you decide if you want me to take it further.)

I still can't see any rules etc that are supposedly attributed to God that we couldn't work out for ourselves

Some Biblical verses suggest that God has written his law in our hearts. So it does not surprise christians that pagans can also determine what is right from wrong supposedly all by themselves. C.S Lewis covers this in the opening chapters of his book 'Mere Christianity'. (Let me know if you also want more details on this point)


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 174 (542224)
01-08-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Minority Report
01-08-2010 8:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
However I suspect it was due to God wanting to share His love, and for us to experience everything that He experiences (ie beauty, joy, creativity etc), though I have no list of scriptual verses to support this as yet. If this is the case, then is this a good enough reason for you?

I like the sounds of that.

Why then does he condemn millions to brutal, short lives knowing nothing more than misery?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Minority Report, posted 01-08-2010 8:28 AM Minority Report has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Minority Report, posted 01-09-2010 2:02 AM Larni has responded
 Message 15 by Iblis, posted 01-09-2010 2:18 AM Larni has responded
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 834 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 13 of 174 (542252)
01-08-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Minority Report
01-08-2010 8:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Hi, Minority Report.

A belated welcome to EvC, by the way!

Minority Report writes:

However I suspect it was due to God wanting to share His love...

Life is wonderful, don't you think? This world that we live in is beautiful, bizarre and complex. If these are all attributes which God posesses and finds joy in, then would you blame him for wanting others to experience them?

So, I'm a lifelong Christian, and I've spent a lot of time trying to understand some of the ideas of what makes God God and the logical ramifications of Godhood. Forgive me while I play Devil's advocate.

Honestly, there seems to be something very big missing from this idea that God created the universe because He wanted to share His love.

Why would He experience love?
Before He created man, there was nobody else for Him to love.
It seems like you're suggesting that God was wired for something that wasn't appropriate for His situation. And, because of that, He had a pressing need to fill a void in His existence.
But, how could God have a void in His existence?
This sounds more like we're extrapolating our own situation onto God (i.e. we're making God in our image, rather than having God make us in His).

-----

Minority Report writes:

If we did not have free will then perhaps we would be mindless machines like robots, only doing what we were programmed to do. This would not be a suitable creature for God to share with.

But, God created lots of mindless machines, didn't He?
Rocks, planets, watersheds, atmospheres... why did He make these?

-----

Minority Report writes:

This would not be a suitable creature for God to share with. On the other hand, creatures with free will, which are suitable to experience all that God experiences, can unwittingly choose all those things which lead to death, destruction, fighting etc. If God created us & not left us guidelines for healthy living, then you would be here asking the question "If God loves us, then why didn't He tell us what is good & bad for us?"

Didn't God create all those bad things, too, though?

That's the real complaint I think: why make something bad, and then make a bunch of rules to protect us from it, and punish us for not following the rules? Why not just not make the bad thing in the first place?

-----

To me, the only rational explanations for God's behavior would be:

1. He is just a cog in the machine Himself, allbeit a bigger and more important cog than we are.

2. God's reasons have nothing to do with human emotions.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Minority Report, posted 01-08-2010 8:28 AM Minority Report has responded

Replies to this message:
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Minority Report
Member (Idle past 1289 days)
Posts: 66
From: N.S.W Australia
Joined: 05-25-2009


Message 14 of 174 (542339)
01-09-2010 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
01-08-2010 11:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Hello Larni,

Why then does he condemn millions to brutal, short lives knowing nothing more than misery?

I have seen this question asked alot, in many different forms. Like if God is good, why does he allow so much evil in the world etc. And I suspect it has already been answered on this forum a number of times, and there are books available which deal with this topic.

I am however wondering if this is truly a question you want an answer too. One that you are prepared to read & ponder. Or is it just a rhetorical question you use to scoff at and dismiss Gods love, because of the presence of evil & suffering?

I am willing to attempt to answer this question if you are genuinely interested, and/or point you to suitable books if you seriously want to know?


This message is a reply to:
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 2031 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 15 of 174 (542340)
01-09-2010 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
01-08-2010 11:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Why then does he condemn millions to brutal, short lives knowing nothing more than misery?

It's because we are clay. What he is making is ceramics. It's not that we aren't valuable, obviously we are good clay, or he wouldn't be wasting so much time on us. But the part of us that is going to be immortal isn't the silly mass of opinions and affectations that we think of as ourselves. It's something else, something he has barely begun to construct out of our raw material. He has to spin us, and shape us, and eventually burn us to a crisp.

Sad for the clay, I suppose; but you know, you can't make Hamlet without the first "break a leg".


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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