What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?

I like the sounds of that.Why then does he condemn millions to brutal, short lives knowing nothing more than misery?

In this you would be wrong: the question has not been answered.If you could I would be in your debt. I do want an answer to this question.Edited by Larni, : cut and paste

I see your point but would it not be better for the clay if Yahweh did not imbue the clay with the ability to suffer?

You are comparing the trials of people in a play to the real people in the real world?How does this in anyway address my point? It certainly makes history more interesting for the scholar for people to have had blood drenched, dramatic lives but that can't be your meaning, surely; that Yahweh puts so many people through misery to make it entertaining? Again, I can only assume you mean that our lives are as but a dream to Yahweh.This is of course false insofar as we (humans) are not dreams in any way that matters to us as individuals.We bleed and suffer at the behest of Yahweh.The (still) unanswered question is why? Either he is a deliberate bastard or he does not care for the suffering of individuals.

And very angry that I had to suffer. No idea what you mean, here. Then having pain inflicted by Yahweh to high light the contrast is pointless. Agreed; the child born with AIDs who dies at 2 years old has had the wonderful opportunity to strive heroically (in agony).That is in no way cool for Yahweh to do, is it? Rubbish.This is what rich pampered people tell themselves to assuage there moral conscience. If your trapper had less time slogging and more free time he would have an opportunity to help others.A better feeling of happiness, I think. You honestly believe that being born with AIDs (par example) is 'pitiful'? Sure; adversity helps build character but not in these situation. What has the hole in the heart baby who dies at 3 months learn? But he does so because he chooses too. He deliberately chooses to put people through misery when he does not need to. So he tortures himself and others even when he does not need too because he's a godStraying from the point: he can torture himself all he likes but he does not need to torture babies, can't you see that he could achieve all of his aims with a hand wave. He chooses to put people through misery and xians lap it up.

Nothing to see hereEdited by Larni, : No reason given.

When it is pointless, yes. When it is helpful to the survival of the organism, no. Unfortunately this is an unsupported assertion. As we can never measure the existence of Yahweh (I assume that's the god you mean) we can never measure the affects of his absence. I have no qualms with this. It does however strongly imply that Yahweh does not love us as individuals. It also implies he needs faith. If Yahweh is all powerful he does not (strictly speaking) need faith. He just wants it. If he is all powerful he is able to fulfil his requirement without subjecting humans to distress.If he is not all powerful, why not? What places limits on him and relegates him to simply a super being? Yes. In the same way I could bring up my child to be dutiful without acting in an evil way towards him or her. My mother and father were never evil towards me and I turned out fine (ish). If Adam could understand cause and effect (which most humans can after the age of about 3) then he would have understood. Again, once they understand cause and effect the child will understand. The child may not act in it's best interest but it does understand. Why Yahweh should punish all humanity for one man's error is simply beyond reason. No. Unless he is not all powerful, then he may have no choice but to suffer evil existing in the world. If it is possible but he should choose not to if he actually does love us. Children can be disciplined without punishment as any good psychologist will tell you. Of course we are. What other standards matter to us when it is used as a measure of distress caused to us by Yahweh? That's cool. Always nice to talk to someone will to take their time rather than preach at me

I had posted a reminder for you but when I posted you had posted your post and so my post was no longer needed.We can't totally delete posts here so I deleted the content (as it was now irrelevant), sorry for any confusion.

Zispin (Mirtazapine). You'll be under in 45 minutes

Hi MR, sorry about the delay, I've had many patients this week. So what you imply is that Yahweh requires some people to go through pain and torment for some reason that is inexplicable to humans, but not every one? I'm not sure that this is required. The issue that I have is why Yahweh puts people through such torment. He does not do it to everyone; some people have pretty good lives. I, for one have known agony only once or twice in my life and have many advanteges that other people in creation have no access to.Does that mean Yahweh likes me more or I have less to learn than people who die in agony of ebola? If I may, I believe you miss my point. I'm interested in why Yahweh chooses to put some people to such extreme discomfort that it kills them.Again to look to myself; I've never been put to such agony that it has killed me: does this mean I already know what the less fortunate have to die in agony to learn? Getting burnt is something that you do to yourself and subsequently learn never to do it again (which is a very good thing, I think). This is how organisms learn and adapt.The problem I have is Yahweh set up the whole situation for Adam to make his error. He made it difficult of Adam not make his error. Would a good parent leave a chainsaw near an inquisitive child, especially when you know for a fact that the child would use it?Yahweh was a negligent parent. The whole rigmoral with Jesus was because Yahweh needed to correct an error he himself put into motion. Even when correcting his error Yahweh can only think in terms of pain and suffering.I've never been ran over by a car. I did not need to be ran over by a car to know what would happen.If ones child is ran over by a car does this become a learning experience? Yes of course it does if it is handled right by the parent.Did Yahweh do this to Adam? Did he turn Adam's error into a positive learning experience?No.Vengful Yahweh cursed all of humanity for ever after. Can Yahweh only think in terms of suffering?This is not the act of a good parent.

I think the point is that He could so all that without torturing humanity.

The problem is that this man (just like your god) is being unfair. That he created us is no reason to torture us, is it?Is your justification for his miss treatment of humanity really 'because he is in charge and we can't stop him'? Would any child say that to their parent, I wonder? An act of mercy would have been to forgive him. Not punish him and his progeny for ever after.What could a creator god gain from punishing his creation? An omnipotent being wants for nothing, after all. Either he needs to make some people suffer to achieve some ends (and he considers billions of humans suffering through out history a fair price) or he does not need to do this and does it for, fun?Either way, we only suffer because of his actions. If he had forgiven Adam and not punished Adam and all his progeny for all time none of this torture would be necessary.Think about this for a moment: if your god had shown forgiveness he would have no need to torture people.What a concept; all human misery boiled down to one choice: made by you 'loving' god not to forgive Adam. If he had there would be no 'automatic' sin.People would have to choose to loose you god's love, rather than having to accept Jesus (as is the current paradigm to the best of my knowledge).So I would assert and answer to the question of 'why evil?' is because you god choose to have a world where people suffer. Why? Who can say. But it seems that it was a choice by the very god you claim loves you so much.

Think about what you have just written.If evil did not exist mankind would not be able to practice it.When Adam made the 'wrong' choice it was only 'wrong' because Yahweh decided to call it 'wrong'.So, I'll ask again: why did Yahweh not forgive Adam his trespass and not have to go to the bother of human misery for ever after?Why not show a little of this vaunted love when it could have really been useful? Rather than forgive him his sin. Rather than not introduce these activities into the human behavioural array. Yes he does. He created every thing. He created a situation where he knew people would live and die in such places. If he did not know he's not much a god, is he?Gods ultimate plan is to abolish mankinds independence and bring all of us back into harmony with his perfect laws.[/qs]And he is waiting for what, exactly?If he could get his biblical arse in gear we could cut down on the misery, couldn't we?But hang on. What happens to free will if mankind's independence is abolished? If this is the case that he is not bothered by mankind's independence why bother with it in the first place.For an omniscient god he's useless at forwards thinking.

If suffering never happened every one is a winner. Forgiving something does not mean overlooking! Thus your god could have punished Adam in a lesser way (say banished him for a few weeks) and he would have learnt his lesson. This is not true: causing people to suffer is not a righteous act and you god does it all the time. For the reasons above it is clear he did not overlook the rebellion for no good reason. Sigh. Who gave us these instincts? Who stacked the deck in such a way that we would have actively go against our god given instincts to be righteous?It's like addicting some one to heroine and punishing them when they take it. But why punish all of humanity? Why? What you are doing is blaming people for being wicked to each other: fair enough.I however and concerned in this thread with your god making us suffer. Not people making us suffer.If a person makes another suffer when they don't need to they are cruel. As you god is not required to make us suffer, he is cruel.Not a loving god at all. So you love the god who chooses to make you suffer?Stockholm Syndrome much?The bottom line is that your god could have us living with him any time he chooses. He makes all the rules but chooses to have suffering part of the human condition.Your god does not rectify this situation immediately.Why? Remember, he can do anything so nothing stops him apart from his decision.

Your scripture is very poetic but it explains how things were and how things will be; not why you god chose to take the course of actions that he did.What your scripture fails to answer is the question posed by this thread.I ask why god chose to punish us for one man's sin and you reply with (paraphrased) 'don't worry it will all work out in the end'.My mind is not made up: provide a reason for your god doing what he has done i.e. engineered the current situation with reality.