What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?

Hello Jumped up chimpanzee,
Admittedly I am a not completely clear on the purpose for God creating us. However I suspect it was due to God wanting to share His love, and for us to experience everything that He experiences (ie beauty, joy, creativity etc), though I have no list of scriptual verses to support this as yet. If this is the case, then is this a good enough reason for you?Life is wonderful, don't you think? This world that we live in is beautiful, bizarre and complex. If these are all attributes which God posesses and finds joy in, then would you blame him for wanting others to experience them?Regarding rules. Perhapps the easiest way to answer this question is to ask if you have any children?Disregarding the reasons for parents having kids for a moment, most parents do expect their kids to obey certain rules. These may be for the childs own safety & other reasons, or to train them for their future adult life; to balance their own desires with regards to others etc. Yes kids do have minds of their own, but we do not accept the kid's selfishness as being the parents fault just because the parents chose to have the kid. Free will means exactly that. We are completely free to do what we will. But sometimes this is not good for us or others to do so, hense some rules need to be set out, for our own good & others, and to keep the peace in general.If we did not have free will then perhapps we would be mindless machines like robots, only doing what we were programmed to do. This would not be a suitable creature for God to share with. On the other hand, creatures with free will, which are suitable to experience all that God experiences, can unwittingly choose all those things which lead to death, destruction, fighting etc. If God created us & not left us guidelines for healthy living, then you would be here asking the question "If God loves us, then why didn't He tell us what is good & bad for us?" Complain because there are rules, and then complain if there are none.

Hello Jumped up chimpanzee, It appears that everything was created for a purpose, and as far as I can tell, the world was created to acheive God's purposes for us. So yes you can say to an extent that we were the first idea, and the world was created for us, though there is more to it than this. I suspect you are referring to some christian doctrine or other here. If so could you give me bit more detail to work on? But in the meantime......
One of the purposes we were made is to praise God. This may sound a little booring to a non beleiver, and may make God look like He has a big ego which needs stroking. Which is why I hesitate to submitt it as a purpose, but it is after all an important part of a christians life, and perhapps should be discussed in more detail. I know it is not entirely the same. I meerly presented children as a starting analogy to assist with explaining some of the reasons for Gods rules. There are of course other reasons why God gave us the 'Law' so to speak. Yes most people would find this unacceptable, when presented in that way. But put into its correct context however, might be an entirely different story. Douglas Wilson covers this point in his book 'Letter from a christian citizen. A response to Letter to a Christian nation by Sam Harris'. (It might be going off topic for me to discuss this point here in more detail, so I'll let you decide if you want me to take it further.) Some Biblical verses suggest that God has written his law in our hearts. So it does not surprise christians that pagans can also determine what is right from wrong supposedly all by themselves. C.S Lewis covers this in the opening chapters of his book 'Mere Christianity'. (Let me know if you also want more details on this point)

Hello Larni, I have seen this question asked alot, in many different forms. Like if God is good, why does he allow so much evil in the world etc. And I suspect it has already been answered on this forum a number of times, and there are books available which deal with this topic.I am however wondering if this is truly a question you want an answer too. One that you are prepared to read & ponder. Or is it just a rhetorical question you use to scoff at and dismiss Gods love, because of the presence of evil & suffering?I am willing to attempt to answer this question if you are genuinely interested, and/or point you to suitable books if you seriously want to know?

Hello Bluejay, Thank you. Thats quite ok. I do it myself sometimes to help another clarify their thoughts on a subject. I hope you can help me to clarify mine. The verse I had in mind about this point is Genesis 1:26 'Then God said, "let us make man in our image, in our likeness..."'. I read this as God referring to himself in the trinity. I also vaguely remember another verse talking about the love within the trinity, though I cannot find it just now. Perhapps you could help? This whole topic is a grey area to me so please bear with me as I blunder through it, learning as I go. It looks to me that love already existed within the trinity, and because of this love He/they created us. The depth of this love is revealed in Jesus, as God forsaw our need to be saved from our sins, and so had already planned to die for us before we had even been created. No. I was trying to present the idea that God created the world for our benefit, and to share a whole lot of good stuff with us. I do not think we can give anything to God that he does not already have. Even us praising God is seemingly for our own benefit, not Gods. For our benefit. To reveal Gods power. 'For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.' (Romans 1:20) It appears that God's creation as a whole can also reveal to us that He actually exists. I could also suggest that the created world is also an extention of God's revealed laws, in that we are condemned by the created world, if we deny that it reveals God. This is perhapps similar to the question in post 12. I'm reluctant to give a short answer to this as it would not do such an important question justice. However I will try and examine one aspect of it.God does not make bad things. Consider one of mans discoveries such as nuclear power. Nuclear energy is not of itself moral or imoral. It can be used for good purposes, but also for bad. The same can be said for just about anything. Sex is a good thing, but some people can try and obtain this good thing in a bad way, such as in rape. If God were to not create anything that could possibly be used in a bad way, then there would probably not have been a creation at all.Also, you perhapps present punishment for disobedience as being a bad thing? The Bible indicates that if God punishes you, to be glad, as it shows that He loves us. If a parent allowed their child to play on a busy road, you would perhapps consider them uncaring. A Loving parent may severely punish their child for playing on the road, because they know that their punishment is not likely to kill their child, but their hope is to prevent their childs death.

Hello Bluejay, Sorry about that. I sometimes tend to compartmentalise different aspects of an idea. However when I wrote "God created the world for our benefit", I assumed it would be self evident that this was because of His love. My bad for assuming this. This is the danger of trying to write a one sentence summation. I've tried to keep my posts short for ease of reading, but also tried to make it clear that there is always much more to each point. I know, this does seem a bit wierd. All I can put it down to is that God, having such an intellect, could already forsee us down to every last detail, even before creating us. So perhapps for him, with this ability, He could have love for us before creating us.This also brings to mind what is the definition of love anyway. We mostly talk of it as a feeling, an emotion, a chemical reaction that takes place within us when we see a fine specimen of the opposite sex. But it also appears to be a choice and involves sacrifice. To love someone in this sense would mean first making a choice to love them, even if they reject you. This kind of love involves actions. Have you heard this before; 'he says he loves me but he never washes the dishes'. So when saying that God created us out of love, it could mean that He decided to create beings which He chose to give his love too, and sacrifice Himself for. Creating us to be an object of His love. Why? What I hear you saying, is that if given an answer which you personally have difficulty accepting, it just can't be the correct one. Will you keep on asking the same question until you get an answer you like? Or will you read the Bible to see if this really is what it appears to say? Don't get me wrong, I'm not chastising you here. I have also asked this very question in a pit of pain & dispair, wondering if 'LOVE' was really worth all the anguish, pain, wars, misery that has gone on since the fall of Adam. I Wondered that surely God could have done it better or differently. But when I read the story of Job and God's answer to him, that I speak with 'words without knowledge', I keep being brought back to the same answer, 'LOVE'.

Hello Larni,I must say that I am surprised that nobody has tackled this question yet. However after doing some research I can see why. Any answer I attempt will perhapps not be satisfactory to a non beleiver. Even Christians struggle with the problem of evil. There is no one sentence answer as there are many aspects to this question that we could examine. I can only hope that you may see the forrest after I've attempted to described all the trees.I havn't formulated a coherent explanation as yet, just a jumble of thoughts for topics to discuss. So I'll give you what I've got so far and let the chips fall where they may.DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE PROBLEM OF EVIL;-Is physical pain a bad thing? - Re Phillip Yancey book 'where is God when it hurts'.-Article: The Atheist Professor - Evil is just the abscence of good/god, like darkness being just the abscence of light.-Book of Job - Our pain, comfort, safety, does not appear high on God's list of priorities. Faith seems to top the list. Therefore the elimination of evil may not be God's
no.1 priority.-Free will V's evil - free will enables evil to occur. God created us with free will. God forsaw this evil yet created anyhow. Is it possible for us to understand the importance of obedience without experiencing evil? If God attempted to explain why death is the consequence of sin to Adam, could he have understood it? Because evil at that point would have been like an abstract concept to Adam. You may tell your child 'don't touch that, it's hot & will burn you', but would your child understand what 'hot' and 'burn' mean until they disobey you & experience it for themself. Adam chose to disobey God & discover for himself 'the knowledge of good and evil', and so most of the evil in this world occurs because of this.-Is it not possible for a loving God to remain loving while allowing evil to exist?-Is it possible for a loving God to use evil to acheive his goals?-Are we determining what is evil, and then accusing God of evil by our standards?That will do for now.

Hello Larni, Not sure what you mean here. Please explain?

Hello Bluejay, I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you. But I can't figure out how I've done so. I was responding to your question; By first challenging you why love was not an acceptable reason, and then secondly admitting that I have also questioned this conclusion due to the problem of evil, but that ultimately this is the only answer I kept comming too.I know your concern is with the logic of how God could love us before we existed. My concern is that you may have rejected love as a possibility, because 'You’re confining your thinking within the reality we know'. I agree. Which is why I've only tried to suggest this as what I think to be the reason. However, though the Bible might not state it explicitly (I'll have to check on this), I think that it can be deduced, and that it is implied. God could have perhapps made many different versions. But would they acheive the goals that He wanted to acheive? Are there many possible ways to acheive the same exacting goals, or is there only one possible reality that could acheive this? This is really all just speculative. We ultimately have to trust that God knows more than we do about creating realities, and that He created our current one the way He did for very good reasons.If God did created a world where nothing bad ever happened, would there ever be such a thing as 'good' in that world? This makes me think of the end times when all believers are called to God & then spend an eternity in fellowship with Him. In that reality there will apparently be no tears or evil, but I guess we might still retain some memory of this world & evil for comparrison. (When I wrote that 'God does not make bad things', I had in mind God's summation of all that He had made, that it was 'very good'.)Yes you are right. God created this reality knowing it would allow evil things to occur. Car manufacturers make cars capable of breaking speed limits, but when one is caught speeding, who is fined, the driver or the manufacturer. Would you suggest that if they could, car manufacturers should make cars that cannot ever speed? What you are suggesting is the removal/controll of anything that we could abuse, therefore eliminating any temptation to sin. If we are physically prevented from being able to sin, does this make us better people, the type of people God wants to share eternity with?

Hello Larni, Yes I agree. But perhapps what appears to be pointless pain from our perspective, might actually have eternal implications. Yes it is hard to imagine what point there could be to 1000's of people dying from a tsunami, but we also cannot see the big picture. What is temporary pain compared with eternal bliss? It was not an unsupported assertion made by me. It was an assertion made in the article 'The atheist professor', which I thought could be a topic which we could discuss. Perhapps you would like to discuss what is evil; is evil the absence of good, or an entity in and of itself?I agree that we may not be able to measure the absence of something, but I still think you can measure (not in a physical scientific sense) the existance of Yahweh (yes thats the one I'm talkin bout), using other methods. But I do not want to get sidetracked on that point. I do not see how relegating our comfort to a lower priority implies that He does not love each one of us. What is it about your comfort that requires it to be God's No.1 priority, in order for you to believe that He loves you? Parents still love their children, even when they don't pander to all their desires. This was not about understanding cause & effect. I was asking how could a child understand what 'hot' is unless they felt heat with their senses. Like how do you explain colours to a person who was born blind, or music to one born deaf. Relating this to evil, if Adam had no concept of it, as he was born (so to speak) into a world where it did not exist, then could God ever explain it to him? Would he ever be able to trust that God had his best interests at heart when requesting his blind obedience? Or was it necessary for adam/us to experience evil, by our own disobedience, before we could trust God?I'm sorry. I'll have to continue this later. The pillow beckons.Edited by Minority Report, : Adding names to quotesEdited by Minority Report, : No reason given.

Hello Iblis,
Sorry to delay answering your post, but I've been struggling to just keeping up with Bluejay & Larni. Yes I am tentative about this idea, and the more we discuss it, the more uncertain I become. I agree that Job suggests we havn't a clue what God is really up to, or what happens behind the scenes. Which is why I directed 'words without knowledge' at myself. But I felt this thread was an oportunity to discuss what could be the reason for God creating us, of which I had my own pet theory to share. Also I saw it as an opportunity to question the assumption that rules were a bad thing. But as it turns out, it also now seems linked with the common complaint against God's creation regarding the problem of evil. This is a big task for silly old me to attempt to tackle, and I'd appreciate any help.Regarding purpose & use of creation, I see your point, I think. Bluejay was also trying to pull me up on this point, using the word 'motivation' to help me understand the distinction. I think I may be falsely interpreting the term 'purpose', but can't see the distinction just yet. Need more strong coffee.I thank you for alerting me that my idea of God creating stuff just for us, could be perceived as egotistical, something that man thought up only to boost his self importance. I didn't really mean it in that way, but yes I can see now how this could provide easy fodder for a mocker.By the way, please don't see me as being wise. I'm sure to say something soon to demonstrate how much a fool I am, if not said already.Edited by Minority Report, : correcting typoEdited by Minority Report, : correcting typo

Hello Jumped up Chimpanzee, Thats a good idea. Perhapps starting a thread with the title 'The problem of Evil', as typing this into google gets a staggering number of hits, and appears to be the main term used to address the question 'If God is good/loving, why does he allow suffering' etc. Yes, now that you mention it, that does seem to be a large part of my argument so far. I was mainly using it to refute other peoples assumptions that there is no legitimate reason for God to allow suffering. I wasn't using it as a positive argument, just a defensive one. I have not had much time yet to present a positive case for the problem of evil. Hope I get a chance to in your new thread. The original question has to assume for a moment that God does exist and created this world, before asking for reasons as to why God made it.

Hello Bluejay, Sorry about that. I used the word comfort to singularly stand for all three. I find communicating in general very hard, and to express thoughts & ideas concisely in written form extremely tedious. I'd like to have an excuse, such as english being my second language, because it feels that way to me when I attempt to write anything. I am Australian though, so that might count for something.

Hello Bluejay,
Thanks for some breathing space. I'll try & get back to some of your earlier posts which I had trouble understanding/answering. I'll also try at some point to expand on my idea of love being the reason for God's creation, as suggested by Iblis. I had to read this whole section a few times to try & understand what your getting at, and what exactly is your confusion? I think your confusion might be caused by a possible false dilemma you've presented here. The first part of your dilemma goes something like this; If Good & bad existed before God & therefore He is not the source of Good (including love) & bad, then love cannot be the reason for creation. Have I got that right?Iblis presented this verse; I have not investigated this verse to verify the context, but it does seem to indicate at face value that God is saying He created evil. If so then God is the source & authority on good & evil, and it could not have already existed before Him. Therefore the first part of your dilemma is possibly false.The second part of your dilemma goes something like this: If good & bad did not exist before God, then His reason for creation was not influenced by good(including love) or bad. Have I got that right, because the logic just doesn't seem right in this? You seem to suggest that either good & bad existed before God, so therefore He is not the source of love, or they didn't exist before God and therefore love cannot influence Him. Have I got that right?But if good & bad did not exist before God, then they must have come into existance after God, and therefore God must have been the source of good & bad. If God is the source of good & bad, then why would it (including love) not be an influence in His reason for creation?I assume that God is the source of good(including love) & evil, and that love is the reason for creation. I can't see a dilemma here, or having it both ways.I may have you completely wrong here as I find this dilemma entirely confusing.

Hello bluejay, Just a quick point about this which I should have revealed earlier. I think if you look back you will find it was actually me who wrote this, not Larni. I think the confusion arose because I was not putting the authors name above each quote. I'll perhapps start doing this from now on. Sorry for the confusion.

Hello Iblis,
Yes I will now try to expand a bit on my idea of love being God's reason for creation.But first just a quick aside. My wife is Indonesian, and when she spotted your name she commented that in Bahasa Indonesian, Iblis means the devil or satan. I checked our Indonesian-English dictionary and sure enough it did mean this. Is this intentional irony, or just an unintended coincidence? Yes, I was hinting at this in my opening post, though not exactly in this context. I was suggesting that God experiences pleasure. We are created in his image, we experience pleasure, therefore God experiences pleasure. (Though the term Joy is used much more in the Bible than pleasure, and in a positive sense, whereas pleasure is more often used in the negative ie 'a fool finds pleasure in evil conduct' Prov 10:23.) So God may have envisaged bunny rabbits, and took pleasure in them before he created them, and created them for us to also find pleasure in. Yes I agree. But It's a tad difficult to explain this in a logical, reasoned form, to someone who may want an answer to 'why did God create' to support the very existance of God.But I will try. This verse and others (ie John 1:3)suggests that the universe was made by Jesus, through Jesus, and with Jesus's sacrifice for us pre planned. This verse suggests that love exists within the trinity, and that Jesus chose to die for us. In this verse Jesus tells us that the greatest demonstration of love is to die for someone, as Jesus himself did. He also commands us to do the same. Finally we get to one of the most quoted verses. God loves us so much that he sent Jesus to die for us. God loves Jesus because he lays down his life for us. God is in Jesus & God is Jesus, and Jesus is God(John10:30). The universe was made by Jesus & because of Jesus, and who is a demonstration of God's love.I hope this goes some way to explain my Idea.