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Author Topic:   What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 15 of 174 (542340)
01-09-2010 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Larni
01-08-2010 11:28 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Why then does he condemn millions to brutal, short lives knowing nothing more than misery?
It's because we are clay. What he is making is ceramics. It's not that we aren't valuable, obviously we are good clay, or he wouldn't be wasting so much time on us. But the part of us that is going to be immortal isn't the silly mass of opinions and affectations that we think of as ourselves. It's something else, something he has barely begun to construct out of our raw material. He has to spin us, and shape us, and eventually burn us to a crisp.
Sad for the clay, I suppose; but you know, you can't make Hamlet without the first "break a leg".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Larni, posted 01-08-2010 11:28 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Larni, posted 01-09-2010 7:27 AM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 17 of 174 (542342)
01-09-2010 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Nuggin
01-09-2010 2:20 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
The Bible makes it clear from beginning to end that God is anything but good.
Yep, far from it. A god that was merely good would just be a big half-assed idol.
Isaiah 45:6,7 writes:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Nuggin, posted 01-09-2010 2:20 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 21 of 174 (542369)
01-09-2010 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Larni
01-09-2010 7:27 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
I see your point but would it not be better for the clay if Yahweh did not imbue the clay with the ability to suffer?
Wouldn't it have been better for Hamlet if Shakespeare had let him win a few, and go on raiding Britannia and marrying witch-queens and so forth for years and years thereafterward the way Amlethus does? Or would it?
Do you worry one moment about all the terrible suffering that sometimes happens in dreams? Or do you stretch yourself, and say Hmm, wonder what that was really about?
. . .
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
-- Puck
To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die, to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep! perchance to dream: aye, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despis'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would these fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
-- Hamlet
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
-- Prospero
A play there is, my lord, some ten words long,
Which is as brief as I have known a play;
But by ten words, my lord, it is too long,
Which makes it tedious; for in all the play
There is not one word apt, one player fitted:
And tragical, my noble lord, it is;
For Pyramus therein doth kill himself.
Which, when I saw rehearsed, I must confess,
Made mine eyes water; but more merry tears
The passion of loud laughter never shed.
-- Philostrate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Larni, posted 01-09-2010 7:27 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Larni, posted 01-09-2010 12:53 PM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 23 of 174 (542384)
01-09-2010 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Larni
01-09-2010 12:53 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
You are comparing the trials of people in a play to the real people in the real world?
Yes. (With a minor quibble about the word "real")
How does this in anyway address my point?
One important version or teaching-tool of this model, is that the secret "real" author of the Bible (in some sense) is also the secret "real" author of our own spacetime (in some sense.) This puts us in the position of a character in a Stephen King novel in which other King novels exist at the local bookstore. If we were to go and read Salem's Lot, or even just catch that terrible 70's made-for-tv movie of it on late night cable somewhere, we would know to stay the hell away from New England. In the same way, if we read the Bible, we know we need to get as far away from the Middle East as possible, something called "the New World" ought to sound pretty appealing. And if we do meet God anyway, or any of his representatives, we know that they are vulnerable to nails and crosses. Strike quick and strike hard!
It certainly makes history more interesting for the scholar for people to have had blood drenched, dramatic lives but that can't be your meaning, surely; that Yahweh puts so many people through misery to make it entertaining?
Not just entertaining, inspiring, educational, noble, beautiful, and terrible.
Again, I can only assume you mean that our lives are as but a dream to Yahweh.
Not just to him, to us. I'm sure you have suffered in life; not much maybe, compared to the untold millions, but enough to understand this. When your suffering was done, were you not happy? And was that happiness not totally out of scale compared to the dull peace and contentment that you might have had before the troubles began?
It is common in our modern cow-to-the-slaughter existence to think of happiness as a synonym for mere pleasure. But this is false, real happiness is something far better than a mere lack of pain. As Nietzche tells us, happiness is the feeling that strength increases as resistance is overcome. That means, not peace at all but war; not contentment, but rather more striving.
The man who eats an expensive lobster at a fancy restaraunt is content, perhaps even pleased if his pleasure centers even work after so much dullness; the man who fights his way through the storm to his traps, and finds that this time he has actually caught enough to be able to eat one for himself and still make enough money to support his family, and manages to only get clawed once or twice in the cleaning and boiling process, and licks his wounds and settles down to enjoy his meal, is happy.
This is of course false insofar as we (humans) are not dreams in any way that matters to us as individuals.
Not according to the model that we are discussing here. Our lives in spacetime are similar to a plane, across which we spread for a certain prelimary period. When that period is over, the base we have made for ourself begins to expand upward into eternity, Everything we made of ourself in this life (or more likely, these lives) trails along behind us as we proceed to grow outward. All these minor "sufferings" we thought were so awful when they were our main concern, have become the callouses that keep us from falling over into the abyss.
The pitiful troubles of this year are accomplishments next year. The silly things the clay was concerned about are key strengths of the pot. What the caterpillar thinks is the end of the world, the world receives as a butterfly.
We bleed and suffer at the behest of Yahweh.
The (still) unanswered question is why? Either he is a deliberate bastard or he does not care for the suffering of individuals.
What would make this an either/or situation? He is rather clear about this, he is the most cold-blooded bastard in all eternity, a real genocidal spirit king. And he is doing it deliberately, for a reason, with the highest level of premeditation we can imagine.
But beyond that, his view of "the suffering of individuals" is so different from ours, that he did not hesitate to enter into that suffering himself, and make it a part of his own eternal nature. Whatsoever any one has done to the least of these, has happened to him, by his own intention, from the beginning.
He laughs in the face of our suffering, and says "Please, sir! May I have another!" And his advice for us is to learn to do the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Larni, posted 01-09-2010 12:53 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Larni, posted 01-10-2010 8:06 AM Iblis has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


(1)
Message 34 of 174 (542517)
01-10-2010 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Minority Report
01-09-2010 10:01 PM


Job, use and purpose
'words without knowledge'
I want to argue with you about your idea that all that out there was created to impress us. Please don't be alarmed, I see that you are taking a tentative approach to these questions, and I see that as a sign of wisdom.
But I think that this idea shows a confusion on your part between use and purpose. A gun, for example, may be used to rob a bank, salute a fallen comrade, compete in sport, break up angry mobs, frighten off potential threats, open locked doors, or even crack a nut. But its purpose is to kill the living.
In much the same way, in Job we see the wonders of creation used to impress a miserable and disturbed person who may be in danger of losing faith. But even there, we do not get the impression that this is their actual purpose. A good analogy for this story might be the father who takes a day off work to help cheer up his sick child. During this visit he talks a lot about what he does all day usually and how exciting and interesting it all is. This does succeed in impressing and entertaining the kid.
But is that its purpose? Is that the real reason he does it? In one sense maybe it is, he works to support his family. But that is not why he does the specific things he does, simply why he works so hard at it maybe. He follows the particular vocation he has chosen, because this is what he does. This is what he is interested in, this is where his skills lie, these are things he loves and/or is good at and/or finds profit in.
Do you see the difference? God makes black holes and quasars and dinosaurs and bumblebees for reasons that we are hardly likely to be able to understand at this point. We barely have a hope of understanding why he has made us, even at our smartest, as Larni is demonstrating profusely. But I think we can be sure that these things have a purpose for him that is well beyond any nonsense about their incidental value to us thus far.
It is hard enough to argue against people intent on attacking "straw man" arguments like a god who could just wave his hands and make pots without torturing the clay, without feeding them egotistical concepts like a God who makes creation for creatures, to mock too. Sure it all fits together, sure that is one use, but you know, most of the theme of Job is about us not having the slightest clue what he is really up to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Minority Report, posted 01-09-2010 10:01 PM Minority Report has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Blue Jay, posted 01-10-2010 1:30 PM Iblis has replied
 Message 47 by Minority Report, posted 01-13-2010 6:52 AM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 37 of 174 (542527)
01-10-2010 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Blue Jay
01-10-2010 1:30 PM


Re: Job, use and purpose
believe
LOL, I'm just arguing the model. Stop believing things, start understanding what they mean and where they go and where they stop.
That God's creative process also follows the restrictions of the physical laws that govern our universe?
Don't need to go that far yet, even. Half this argument is about a God who has free will in the same sense that we do. Isn't that clearly nonsense? Our alleged "free will" is really a mass of contradictory impulses, whims that pull us to and fro, the exact opposite of any real freedom. Our decisions are made over time, and in a state of ignorance. Though God can relate to this condition, having apparently submitted to it in one aspect of his great and eternal repentance, and use it as a model to help us understand, you must also understand that it doesn't really describe him properly.
He already knows our future. He already knows what he is going to do. He knows his own nature and affirms it. He has no real alternative to doing what he does. He knows it, he is it, he cannot be or do otherwise. He creates both good and evil, with every move he makes. You are going to arrive at this state yourself, when you become "spiritually mature." The minor decisions you are making now, are the substance out of which this eternal nature is being made.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Blue Jay, posted 01-10-2010 1:30 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 55 of 174 (542927)
01-13-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Minority Report
01-13-2010 6:52 AM


love love love
Thanks. Yes, take your time.
By the way, please don't see me as being wise. I'm sure to say something soon to demonstrate how much a fool I am, if not said already.
That's what wisdom is though, that's how the process works. If you know that anything you say may well be wrong, then you know at least one true thing. There are a lot of people who think their little world-view or arrangement of dogma somehow contains the whole world, as I'm sure you know, so you are familiar with at least one false thing as well. These two give you a standard to compare ideas that are unfamiliar or due for a review with, to help you get a preliminary tentative classification for them. This is how we begin to find our way, by knowing which direction is what.
Regarding purpose & use of creation, I see your point, I think. Bluejay was also trying to pull me up on this point, using the word 'motivation' to help me understand the distinction. I think I may be falsely interpreting the term 'purpose', but can't see the distinction just yet. Need more strong coffee.
I thank you for alerting me that my idea of God creating stuff just for us, could be perceived as egotistical, something that man thought up only to boost his self importance. I didn't really mean it in that way, but yes I can see now how this could provide easy fodder for a mocker.
Yep, I'm going to suggest that you expand on your idea of love. Loving us before creating us, creating us because he loves us, is classic God behavior, similar to his lack of free will like the kind we have that I was preaching about earlier. So, if he creates us because he loves us, it isn't nonsensical to propose that he might create pulsars and bunny rabbits because he loves them too.
Sure, it could be a different kind of love. A good analogy might be a father's love for his children, versus his love for his record collection. Sure, he loves those old vinyl hits a lot, but in a fire he gets his kids out first and then goes back for the Peter Paul and Mary if he has the chance. On the other hand, on a good day, when no one is hitting anyone and everyone has good grades, what he really likes to do is sit down and listen to Puff the Magic Dragon.
But I felt this thread was an oportunity to discuss what could be the reason for God creating us, of which I had my own pet theory to share. Also I saw it as an opportunity to question the assumption that rules were a bad thing. But as it turns out, it also now seems linked with the common complaint against God's creation regarding the problem of evil. This is a big task for silly old me to attempt to tackle, and I'd appreciate any help.
Let's look harder at your love idea then. We like to think of love as all cookies and cake, but it isn't, is it? It's not just a brother who upholds his sister's honor against any criticism, it's also a brother who kills his sister over her damaged honor too. It isn't just a mother who gives her kids a hot nutritious meal, it's a mother who can only be happy through her kids and makes them sick so she can thrive on the attention it gets them. There's the wife who can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan, sure. But there's also the wife who cuts her man's pork off and throws it in a ditch.
Love is wonderful, but it's also terrible. I have mixed feelings about bringing C S Lewis into this, because half of what he does is a particularly clever method of lying (persuasion disguised as proof.) But credit where credit is due, I stole this analogy from him.
We are supposed to love others as we love ourselves, right? But no one thinks about what this means. They have the idea that it means as much as we love ourselves. But that's not what it says, is it? Nor do we love ourselves very much anyway, most of us. The egotist doesn't have a large ego, he has a tiny starved one that desperately needs attention.
But to the extent that we do love ourselves, how does this love express itself? In a very peculiar and specific fashion. We do forgive ourselves readily, but its always a case of "that can't be helped now, it's too late." It's never a case of "That's actually OK, that's excusable, everyone makes mistakes." Far from it! We must do better, let everyone else worry about everyone else. We are far crueler with ourselves than anyone else could be. We put ourselves through torture no one else could, often for very minor gains like a grade or a better physique.
Now we see signs of something like this in the more selfish forms of love that I was mentioning above. Sure, I love my neighbor in some generic sense, I guess, on a good day. But I don't really give a rat's ass what kind of grades his kids get, except in a vague sense of Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. But when our own kids get bad grades, when our own spouses do stupid things, well! Then we might go ahead and be as rough with them as we are with ourselves.
Now God is pretty rough with himself, isn't he? He repenteth everything he do, from beginning to end. Oh Me, if it be My will, please can't You just not do this to Myself, huh please? So it shouldn't be a surprise that he's quite rough on us too. We often kill the things we love, don't we? For their own good.
When we understand this
Exodus 34:14 writes:
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
only then can we begin to hope to understand this
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
King Saul fell on his sword when it all went wrong;
and Joseph's brothers sold him down the river for a song;
and "Sonny" Liston rubbed some Tiger Balm into his glove;
some things you do for money, and some you do for
love love love
Raskolnikov felt sick (but he couldn't say why)
when he saw his face reflected in his victim's twinkling eye;
some things you'll do for money, and some you'll do for fun;
but the things you do for love are going to come back to you
one by one
Love, love is going to lead you by the hand
into a white and soundless place;
now we see things as in a mirror dimly,
but then we shall see each other
face to face
-- Mountain Goats
Edited by Iblis, : And I will give him the morning star.-- Revelations 2:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Minority Report, posted 01-13-2010 6:52 AM Minority Report has replied

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 62 of 174 (543043)
01-14-2010 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by hooah212002
01-14-2010 10:42 AM


Child of Eve
And so goes the story of women being the downfall of man.
Note that Eve and Yahweh are the same word. Here's a nice bit from Dr. Lao elaborating on the pun
The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.
[Conceived of as] having no name, it is the Originator of heaven and earth;
[conceived of as] having a name, it is the Mother of all things.
Tao Te Ching - Translated by J. Legge
Leaving that aside for the moment, let's look at Hesiod in the Genealogy of the Gods
Forthwith he made an evil thing for men as the price of fire; for
the very famous Limping God formed of earth the likeness of a shy
maiden as the son of Cronos willed. And the goddess bright-eyed
Athene girded and clothed her with silvery raiment, and down from
her head she spread with her hands a broidered veil, a wonder to
see; and she, Pallas Athene, put about her head lovely garlands,
flowers of new-grown herbs. Also she put upon her head a crown
of gold which the very famous Limping God made himself and worked
with his own hands as a favour to Zeus his father. On it was
much curious work, wonderful to see; for of the many creatures
which the land and sea rear up, he put most upon it, wonderful
things, like living beings with voices: and great beauty shone
out from it.
But when he had made the beautiful evil to be the
price for the blessing, he brought her out, delighting in the
finery which the bright-eyed daughter of a mighty father had
given her, to the place where the other gods and men were. And
wonder took hold of the deathless gods and mortal men when they
saw that which was sheer guile, not to be withstood by men.
For from her is the race of women and female kind:
of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who live amongst
mortal men to their great trouble, no helpmeets in hateful
poverty, but only in wealth. And as in thatched hives bees feed
the drones whose nature is to do mischief -- by day and
throughout the day until the sun goes down the bees are busy and
lay the white combs, while the drones stay at home in the covered
skeps and reap the toil of others into their own bellies -- even
so Zeus who thunders on high made women to be an evil to mortal
men, with a nature to do evil. And he gave them a second evil to
be the price for the good they had: whoever avoids marriage and
the sorrows that women cause, and will not wed, reaches deadly
old age without anyone to tend his years, and though he at least
has no lack of livelihood while he lives, yet, when he is dead,
his kinsfolk divide his possessions amongst them. And as for the
man who chooses the lot of marriage and takes a good wife suited
to his mind, evil continually contends with good; for whoever
happens to have mischievous children, lives always with unceasing
grief in his spirit and heart within him; and this evil cannot be
healed.
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and more familiarly in Works and Days
"Son of Iapetus, surpassing all in cunning, you are
glad that you have outwitted me and stolen fire -- a great plague
to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as
the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of
heart while they embrace their own destruction."
So said the father of men and gods, and laughed
aloud. And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth
with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind,
and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal
goddesses in face; and Athene to teach her needlework and the
weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace
upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs.
And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in
her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.
So he ordered. And they obeyed the lord Zeus the son
of Cronos. Forthwith the famous Lame God moulded clay in the
likeness of a modest maid, as the son of Cronos purposed. And
the goddess bright-eyed Athene girded and clothed her, and the
divine Graces and queenly Persuasion put necklaces of gold upon
her, and the rich-haired Hours crowned her head with spring
flowers. And Pallas Athene bedecked her form with all manners of
finery. Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within
her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of
loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in
her. And he called this woman Pandora, because all they who
dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread.
But when he had finished the sheer, hopeless snare,
the Father sent glorious Argus-Slayer, the swift messenger of the
gods, to take it to Epimetheus as a gift. And Epimetheus did not
think on what Prometheus had said to him, bidding him never take
a gift of Olympian Zeus, but to send it back for fear it might
prove to be something harmful to men. But he took the gift, and
afterwards, when the evil thing was already his, he understood.
For ere this the tribes of men lived on earth remote
and free from ills and hard toil and heavy sickness which bring
the Fates upon men; for in misery men grow old quickly. But the
woman took off the great lid of the jar with her hands and
scattered all these and her thought caused sorrow and mischief to
men. Only Hope remained there in an unbreakable home within
under the rim of the great jar, and did not fly out at the door;
for ere that, the lid of the jar stopped her, by the will of
Aegis-holding Zeus who gathers the clouds. But the rest,
countless plagues, wander amongst men; for earth is full of evils
and the sea is full. Of themselves diseases come upon men
continually by day and by night, bringing mischief to mortals
silently; for wise Zeus took away speech from them. So is there
no way to escape the will of Zeus.
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Hope. Pandora brought the jar with the evils and opened it. It was the gods' gift to man, on the outside a beautiful, enticing gift, called the "lucky jar." Then all the evils, those lively, winged beings, flew out of it. Since that time, they roam around and do harm to men by day and night. One single evil had not yet slipped out of the jar. As Zeus had wished, Pandora slammed the top down and it remained inside. So now man has the lucky jar in his house forever and thinks the world of the treasure. It is at his service; he reaches for it when he fancies it. For he does not know that that jar which Pandora brought was the jar of evils, and he takes the remaining evil for the greatest worldly good--it is hope, for Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment.
-- Nietzche
Edited by Iblis, : And also there is an Assyrian legend of a woman with a fish ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by hooah212002, posted 01-14-2010 10:42 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 99 of 174 (543644)
01-20-2010 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Taq
01-19-2010 6:53 PM


The Trickster
I have always taken a more humorous, Douglas Adams approach to this question.
You have read Restaraunt at the End of the Universe, haven't you?
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise, surprise, they eat it and he jumps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha.' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."
"Why not?"
"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."
"What are you talking about?"
"Never mind, eat the fruit."
"You know, this place almost looks like the Garden of Eden."
"Eat the fruit."
"Sounds quite like it, too."
-- Douglas Adams

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