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Author Topic:   The power of accumulation in evolution is common sense!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 20 of 53 (542192)
01-08-2010 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 11:48 PM


-Sky- writes:
I've taken pictures on the south canyon jeep tour, but didn't see any threads to read. I compare the structures to white water trips I've been on and to Mt. St. Hellens. And what the Creation Kooks say is true. There is an almost exact replica of the Grand Canyon. The same structures, angles, the same little trickle in the bottom. Only created in weeks.
The Grand Canyon and the "Little Grand Canyon of the Toutle River" at Mt. Saint Helens are both examples of the topic of this thread, the power of successive small changes to accumulate into large effects. The river canyon at Mt. Saint Helens formed gradually over several weeks when a natural dam of the Toutle River gave way and the flow of water eroded through soft ash layers left by the eruption. The river canyon at the Grand Canyon formed over millions of years by the flow of the Colorado River gradually eroding through solid rock layers.
You can create similar effects yourself using a simple river modeling technique. Prepare a large sand box with sand treated and packed down in the manner used for beach sculptures. Lift one end of the sandbox a few inches, then use a hose at the high end to introduce a flow of water. If the slope in the sandbox is small and the water flow is small then the resulting "river" will meander. If the slope of the sandbox is greater and the water flow larger then canyons will quickly be cut.
Rapidly flowing water filled with debris and gravel can cut quickly through underlying rock like a buzzsaw. A flood overlying a landscape cannot do this. If there had been a global flood a mere 4500 years ago then it would be the dominant geological feature of our planet, but there are no signs of it anywhere.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Added clarification in 1st paragraph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-07-2010 11:48 PM Sky-Writing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-08-2010 11:02 AM Percy has replied
 Message 26 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-08-2010 11:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 35 of 53 (542253)
01-08-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Sky-Writing
01-08-2010 11:02 AM


Hi -Sky-,
You seem to be missing the point. The Grand Canyon and Mt. Saint Helens are valid topics in this thread only to the extent that they touch on this thread's topic, which is how small changes can over time create large effects. This is what happens in geology, and this is what happens in evolution.
It's not really relevant to the topic that you don't believe the Grand Canyon formed gradually. If the Grand Canyon is not a good example for you of small changes accumulating over time then there are many other examples we can supply to make clear the way evolution works. But you did make a couple errors that are worth correcting just for purposes of creating an accurate record in this thread.
3/4 of the earth surface is sedimentary layers. (water born)
And fossils only exist when buried rapidly by sediment.
You can't have the flood both deposit and erode the same sedimentary layers, and as mentioned earlier, a flood cannot carve canyons in the landscape it covers. That takes the focused flow of a river.
You're not up to speed. The most plausible public theory is that a plate uplift gave way and an inland sea to burst through and cut the canyon in months. But I enjoy defending "mainstream science" when they already agree with biblical concepts.
...
"The modern Colorado River did not carve the Grand Canyon in the last few million years," Dr. Elston said. "The canyon was already there."
Dr. Elston believes the Grand Canyon is even older, millions and millions of years older, than mainstream geology, and that it was formed by rivers even more ancient than the Colorado, not by a global flood a mere 4500 years ago. You're citing in support of your position someone who disagrees with you even more than mainstream geology.
Your many short posts and frequent errors indicate that you're not taking sufficient time and care.
Do your own research.
At EvC Forum you're expected to support your position yourself, not ask those who disagree with you to do it for you. This is from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Points should be supported with evidence and/or reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-08-2010 11:02 AM Sky-Writing has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 44 of 53 (542345)
01-09-2010 6:46 AM


Summation
This topic evolved into one that could have been called The Present is the Key to the Past. The same processes we see taking place today, such as erosion and the slow accumulation of sediments in oceans, lakes and river mouths, are the same ones that shaped our planet in the past. And of course there are also rapid processes, such as hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tsunamis and asteroid strikes, though these are inconstant and unpredictable.
In this way evolution is analogous to geology. For the most part evolution is the accumulation over time of tiny changes, though occasional larger changes like gene or chromosome duplication can also occur. There's even the equivalent of asteroid strikes when a segment of virus DNA becomes inserted in an organism's own DNA.
All these processes, both geological and evolutionary, leave evidence behind. Things that actually happened in the past leaves traces of the fact that they actually happened.
--Percy

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