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Author Topic:   Where did the matter and energy come from?
Taq
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Message 4 of 357 (542760)
01-12-2010 12:41 PM


Quick Simplification
To make this topic simpler you should just ask where the energy came from. It's already well established that matter formed from the energy that was present at the start of the universe.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
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Message 10 of 357 (542778)
01-12-2010 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Aware Wolf
01-12-2010 2:16 PM


Re: In a metal box with glowing walls
I "know" with the layman's certainty that we don't know what caused the Big Bang. What I want someone to confirm for me is that we know so little about it that we can't rule ANYTHING out.
It's a matter of what we try to rule IN. It reminds me of Dr. House. He will only run tests for diagnoses that have cures. Somewhat the same in science. You go after explanations that you can test for and confirm.
As for "outside" the Universe, this is a semantic problem. The Universe is defined as everything we can observe which is a sphere about 13.7 billion years in radius around us, at least according to my layman's understanding and reading in the area. It might very well that expanding spacetime is an effect in our part of the overall universe (again, from my layman's understanding of what I have read. This isn't gospel by any means).
As for "before the Big Bang" I really don't have a problem with it. For example, some String Theorists have proposed that our Universe came about when two branes collided. These are some of the brightest physicists around (right or wrong) and even they talk in terms of cause and effect, before and after.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
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(1)
Message 13 of 357 (542785)
01-12-2010 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Briterican
01-12-2010 2:43 PM


Re: In a metal box with glowing walls
The idea that the universe is a "sphere" is incorrect. If the universe is finite but boundless (as most believe), then it would probably be more aptly described as a hypersphere - I'm not even going to try to explain that one as it's beyond my capacity - but it basically involves curvature in unobserved dimensions.
I know, it gets confusing.
What I am trying to convey is that the universe is defined by what we can observe. This observable area is 13.7 billion light years in all directions from where you are right now. The observable area is best described as a sphere. I think this is correct because of how universes can be described, specifically a de Sitter type universe where the expansion of space defines an event horizon (again, described by a sphere).
As for the curvature of space time, due to super-luminal inflation it exists outside of our observable universe. Visually, the observable universe may (as in I think this is how it is) best be described as a marble within a toroid. At least, this is how I picture it.

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Taq
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Member Rating: 5.7


Message 36 of 357 (542990)
01-14-2010 10:10 AM


So how does this all work with the energy released by both the electromagnetic fields (photochemical reactions) and nuclear reactions (strong and weak forces)?

  
Taq
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Message 42 of 357 (543025)
01-14-2010 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by cavediver
01-14-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Are the fields eternal, or are they multiplying?
There is only one electron field, and every electron in existence is just a little bump, excitation, or wavelet in that field. Similarly for the photon field, and all of the others.
Is this true for the strong and weak nuclear forces?

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 55 of 357 (543132)
01-15-2010 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
01-15-2010 12:58 PM


Re: Existence
1. But the alleged preponderance of evidence supportive of it emphatically alleged that there is no outside of the universe.
Next you will tell us that Columbus should have fell off the edge of the Earth.
2. Actually creation as per the Biblical Buzsaw hypothesis is more rational than yours. (Buzsaw unique as discussed in archive search or Buzsaw profile history)
Then please show us how your hypothesis predicted the slight differences in the cosmic microwave background.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 190 of 357 (604842)
02-15-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 12:35 PM


Re: A "just right" universe!
The only universe that we can truly come to know and understand with some scientific certainty is the one we live in which has many other scientific constants that seem to be tailor-made just for man's existence.
This may not always be true. It is very possible that we may indeed learn how universes are made in the future.
The point is that an off the peg suit will seem to be tailor made if you ignore all of the other suits in the store.
To favor a belief in a vast array of universes in order to come up with a tailor-made universe ignores the obvious better interpretation that only a divine Tailor could make such a tailor-made universe as we live in.
Why is it a better interpretation?
But as you said, science rejects this conclusion, as do most at this forum.
It's not really a matter of rejecting the conclusion outright. Rather, if things come about by magical poofing through the actions of an undetectable and whimsical supernatural deity then there is no real reason to be doing science in the first place. If we are to research how universes come about in a scientific manner we have to assume that there is a naturalistic mechanism of some sort to find, otherwise what is the point of doing the research? So it is an assumption required by the methodology but not necessarily a philosophical requirement.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 195 of 357 (604848)
02-15-2011 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 1:34 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
To those who choose not to believe, . . .
What about those of us who think this should be a matter of evidence and not belief?

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 196 of 357 (604849)
02-15-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Straggler
02-15-2011 1:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe!
On the contrary - If there is a divine creator of the universe he has given us ample "excuse" to doubt "his" involvement.
Universe Creator Class End of Term Assessment: Must try harder.
I have also toyed with the idea that our universe was created by another being, but not exactly in the way that theists describe. Perhaps our universe was created by a high school student from a very advanced race, so advanced that making universes is (quite literally) child's play. The assignment given to this high school student was to create a universe that produces black holes and the entire range of start types, but one that does not produce life. The high school student tried his/her best, but somehow life still appeared in just one out of every 100 million star systems. Since any advanced race would grades on partial credit, I can only assume the creator of our universe received a B+.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 199 of 357 (604898)
02-15-2011 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by John 10:10
02-15-2011 7:39 PM


Re: A "just right" universe! is this universe.
As is explained in "The Hidden Reality," if the force of gravity were stronger than it is in our universe, but all other properties remained the same, stars would have to burn more fiercely to hold themselves up against the pull of gravity. They would use up their fuel more quickly and burn out in a few million years, not allowing time for life forms like us to evolve (not that I believe life forms on earth evolved to begin with) on planets orbiting those stars. So why should gravity, and the other properties of our universe, be "just right" for us to exist?
It's called confirmation bias. Look into it.
To put it another way, if a universe is not conducive to intelligent life who is there to notice?

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 228 of 357 (605169)
02-17-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 9:57 AM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
So you deduce from my statement that I believe there's no life elsewhere? All I said was finding alien planets and showing aliens actually live there are two different things.
Our government is spending millions/billions searching the heavens to just find these planets that may be orbiting right size stars at the right distance, but then explain that much much more sophisticated instruments are needed to actually determine if there may be a sufficient environment there for potential life on board.
And for what purpose?
To desperately convince more and more unbelievers, as if you needed more convincing, that we are possibly not unique in a Tailor-made universe.
This is another example of how religious belief results in an aversion to new knowledge and a lack of overall curiosity about the world we live in.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 237 of 357 (605217)
02-17-2011 6:03 PM


This all reminds me of the little bacteria under my fridge that must think of me as their Creator.
Their home was first created as I was walking across the kitchen and tripped over my dog as she came tearing in (border collies, what psychos). At the time I just happened to be carrying a pitcher of orange juice that I had made minutes before hand. Needless to say, the orange juice found its way onto the kitchen floor. Days later I smelled something fermenting. As it turns out, some of the orange juice had made its way under the fridge where the temperature was a nice warm temperature, a temperature just right for those bacteria to multiply like mad. After a little bleach and elbow grease the problematic bacteria were taken care of.
Later that day I started thinking about the whole incident again. Could it be that those bacteria were amazed to find themselves in such a conducive environment? Did they erect little bacteria churches where pastors talked about the fine tuned universe they now found themselves in? Did it ever occur to them that their admittedly nice digs were nothing more than an accidental string of events that had nothing to do with them? What did they think when the bleach came along?

  
Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 238 of 357 (605221)
02-17-2011 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by John 10:10
02-17-2011 4:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
Again you are deciding that God was wasteful in designing such a vast and seemingly inhospitable universe wherein He created matter and energy that holds it all together. Are you not now playing God?
Are you not judging God by comparing Earth to our needs?
Also, why would you think that this universe is made for us? We live on a planet that is one of many just in our solar system, a solar system that is just one of billions in our galaxy and a galaxy that is just one of billions across the universe. Why is it that the universe is made for us when we find ourselves on one planet amongst trillions? I would hazard a guess that there are more black holes than people and the universe is much more conducive to the production of black holes than people. So it would seem to me that the universe was made for black holes if anything.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 266 of 357 (606072)
02-23-2011 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by John 10:10
02-23-2011 3:27 PM


Re: A "just right" universe is our universe.
God's wisdom is knowing the difference between what is necessary and what is not with the ingredients He has provided.
Humans and other species evolved to fit the conditions that were already there. You have the cart in front of the horse.

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Taq
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Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 297 of 357 (607029)
03-01-2011 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by John 10:10
03-01-2011 1:22 PM


Re: We live in a Tailor-made universe
How do laws of physics as we know them somehow lend themselves to an off-the-peg universe, rather than to a unique Tailor-made universe?
At this point, they are indistinguishable. Without knowing how many universes there are it is impossible to tell the difference between a tailor made universe and an off the peg universe.

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