Buzzsaw has decided to go off on the deep-end rationalizing away the enslavement of African slaves in America and the eradication of American natives from there homeland. Since this is a diversion of the ‘Euthypro Dilemma’ topic here:
Message 173. I thought it would be better to rebut his ridiculous claims in a new thread as shown below. I also thought that this can easily tie in with the ridiculous tendency for religious fanatics and fundamentalists to rationalize atrocities that are promulgated in the name of there religions:
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
If white people suffered the same plight you would be either dead or living on one of these 300 reservations which occupy less than 2% of the United States. Would you be saying the same thing?
Hi DA. If white people were pagans who boiled one another for dinner, barbariously tortured one another by scalping, disemboweling alive, sacrificicing their children and wives in fire to their gods, sold their enemies as slaves etc as pagan Native Americans and African blacks practiced, perhaps they too would have no true god to deliver them from their opressive govenments as was the case with the pilgrims.
Hmm, Europeans never disemboweled people alive? Do you read history Buzz? You never heard of the Inquisition? Have you ever heard the term "hanged, drawn and quartered" which was not abolished in the UK until 1814? It is not an African invention it is a European one. It was a European invention in which a human was often disembowled or cut into pieces or torn apart. Oh, yes, that is right, all Europeans were "civilized Christians" and this was just a civilized way to keep people in line. Its ok for the European government to sanction and it but not the dumb African savages.
Also, I am sure those boat rides across the Atlantic where 1/4 to 1/2 of slaves onboard died during the passage across the Atlantic, slaves where shackled nearly 24 hours a day, beat and whipped mercilessly and were barely kept alive or fed, and African women were brutally raped by European sailors; were really just pleasure cruises to the Bahamas.
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
What a crock of shit. Where can you show me that slaves in America fared better than there free African relatives?
I said, often this was the case.
And you know this because of what? What evidence shows that they fare better on there slave masters in American than with there families in Africa? What evidence? Prove it.
Buzz writes:
Some chose to stay with their good masters after the emancipation.
Very few CHOSE to. Some had no choice seeing that even after the emancipation they had few if any human rights and very little resources and sustenance to live off of. The whites in the south were very indignant of there newly emancipated black former slaves and many were former slaves were either hunted down and killed or run off to places more hospitable to them.
Buzz writes:
Many others were endeared to their masters and their families.
Endeared as a dog would be to his master you mean.
Btw, DA. perhaps, if you care to be objective and fair, you would put up on the screen artist's rendition of some of the horrors of cannibalism, disemboweling, and scalping etc, as pagans did to themselves before becoming evangelized to become civilized Christians.
Should I also display the inquisition, the witch trials, eradication of the American Indians and other atrocities exhibited by your so-called civilized Christians?
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
So slavery is acceptable as long as white Christians are doing the slaving huh. I guess we Abraham Lincoln was wrong in trying to empancipate the slaves then huh?
This is an obsurd strawman. I'm sure you're aware of that. Nothing I said entertained that position.
No I am not aware of it. You seem to be justifying the enslavement of African Americans and there "kind" treatment by there white masters. I was just extrapolating your position from what you already have told me. Please clarify what exactly your reasoning for justifying the enslavement of African Americans and eradication of American Indians.
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
I guess these attrocities never happened:
These artist renditions are NOT objective of the norm relative to treatment of slaves in the US.
So what was the norm of the treatment of slaves? Are you saying slavery is ok even if slaves were not harshly treated?
They would more accurately depict the ongoing treatment of Christians in totalitarian Islamic nations and secularist communist nations where persecution is ongoing.
And who is justifying the inhumane treatment of anyone in a totalitarian government be they religious or not? Not me? So what is your point?
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
I District Judge Caruthers convened a grand jury in June 1911 to investigate the lynching of the Negro woman and her son. In his instructions to the jury, he said, "The people of the state have said by recently adopted constitutional provision that the race to which the unfortunate victims belonged should in large measure be divorced from participation in our political contests, because of their known racial inferiority and their dependent credulity, which very characteristic made them the mere tool of the designing and cunning. It is well known that I heartily concur in this constitutional provision of the people's will. The more then does the duty devolve upon us of a superior race and of greater intelligence to protect this weaker race from unjustifiable and lawless attacks."
This was just good Christian white folk keeping the ignorant black nigers in check.
Again, this was not the norm.
Than you never lived in the South, I have. Because this was and in some places is still the norm even if people no longer openly vocalize it.
Why don't you put up some stats on how many whites gave their lives during the Civil War to emancipate the blacks.
And how does this justify the enslavement of blacks in the first place? Very few of those in the North went to war with the South just because of the plight of the slaves of the South. Not all Northerners were abolitionists and many held as contemptible attitudes towards blacks as there southern neighbors even if they did not practice slavery. The Civil War was a complex war with many different factors and undertones. It was much about economics if not more so as it was about the human rights of the African slaves.
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
The Republican Party founded shortly before the Civil War is nothing like the Republican Party of today.
LOL. Better do some historical research on this, DA, all the way up to the present. Democrats have consistently been on the wrong side relative to integration and advancement of blacks up to the present.
There have been and still are racist bigots in both parties. My point was that racism is as rampant in the Republican party in the past and the present and is it is and was in the Democratic party. Yes the Democratic Party after the Civil War up to the Civil Rights Act was largely pro-segregation however within the past 30-40 years many of these anti-segregation Southern Dixicrats switched parties and became Republicans resulting in the staunchly conservative Republican Party of today.
I myself am a registered Independent and do not really care for either party or there agendas much less there spotty history.
Buzz writes:
Me writes:
Go read your history books Buzz and stop inventing your own white supremacist racist history.
This personal attack either depicts your ignorance or implicates you as a liar, DA. Either put up or shut up on that account.
ABE: Today I have spent much of the day working with a very black black friend of a number of years under a truck changing a tranny, on my cold driveway. I loaned him over a hundred dollars with no receipt; just his word to pay it back when he can. I also donated to and voted for Allan Keys, a revered very intelligent black when he ran for president of the US a number of years ago. Way back in the early 1950s when in the USAF my a black was my favorite superior officer and another black airman I despised almost as much as I despise the (enemy of the republic) black which we have elected to preside over us. Because of his superiour rank he was very condescending, particularly towards whites under his authority. Over the years I have both helped and befriended many Americans of black descent, some brothers in Christ and some not. I have sent regular donations and clothes via Voice of the Martyrs to African poor for several decades. Yah, DA, ole man buz most certainly must have a history of bigoted racism. NOT!
(I've added the above because I must continually set the record straight on this here at EvC, because of folks like you , DA, who lower yourself to attacking the messenger rather than addressing the pertinent point typed. )
I wonder what your African American friend would say if you told him that that it was justifiable and humane for the whites to have enslaved his ancestors because his ancestors were pagans who boiled one another for dinner, barbariously tortured one another by scalping, disemboweling alive, sacrificicing their children and wives in fire to their gods, sold their enemies as slaves etc as pagan Native Americans and African blacks practiced.
Please, tell him this and then tell me what his reaction is. I dare you. And then let me see how long he will continue to be your friend. No, you are too chicken to do this because you can say this racist stupidity on this board without impunity and then make the ridiculous claim that you are not a racist and have black friends. If they truly knew this is the way you felt than I would venture 99% of them would cease to be your friends much less associate with you.
Furthermore you telling me you have black friends does not discount the fact that you may have a racist view of them. My grandfather, a Southern Christian minister for over 40 years also had several black friends. However, he viewed these friends as ethnically, socially and mentally beneath him. I cannot see your heart of hearts and how you truly view your African American friends but from the skewed view of history and rationalization for slavery that you spew out of your mouth, I and I am sure others on this board cannot but come to the realization that you have a white-centric racist view of history much less your social connections.
If I am wrong please correct me but this is just the way you come across.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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