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Author Topic:   Notre Dame shows its true colors
subbie
Member (Idle past 1275 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 21 (543190)
01-15-2010 11:53 PM


On January 13, the student newspaper for the University of Notre Dame published this cartoon:
Apparently the creator initially wanted the "punch line" to be "AIDS," but for reasons not clear to me, it was changed. I wouldn't call the alteration an improvement.
As you might have guessed, many fans were hit with much shit. On January 15, this apology appeared:
The editors of The Observer would like to publicly apologize for the publication of The Mobile Party in the Jan. 13 edition. The burden of responsibility ultimately lies on us for allowing it to go to print.
There is no excuse that can be given and nothing that can be said to reverse the damage that has already been done by this egregious error in judgment.
The Observer, though an independent newspaper, is representative of the community of the University of Notre Dame and the values it so cherishes: family, understanding, service, respect and love.
Allowing this cruel and hateful comic a place on our pages disgraced those values and severely hurt members of our Notre Dame family our classmates, our friends. For this, we sincerely apologize.
Unfortunately, the language of hate is an everyday reality in our society. Earlier this week, surprising comments made by Sen. Harry Reid about President Barack Obama’s accent and skin color were made public and caused uproar. Now, at Notre Dame, a comic strip including hurtful language was printed in this publication, also causing and rightly so serious concern. It becomes clear that hurtful language is still present among some circles, and, too often, it’s not until comments like these become public that their true hatred is acknowledged.
The truth is, these comments should not be made at all, and we will not allow our pages to be a forum for such hatred. Publishing commentary that seems to encourage or support hate against fellow human beings is inexcusable.
We must, however more forward, and look to promote instead a culture of acceptance and support for all.
The Office of Student Affairs and the Gender Relations Center, as well as student groups like the Core Council for Gay and Lesbian Students, have worked tirelessly to foster an educated community and an environment of acceptance and love. We would ask that those currently working toward ending discourses of hate on campus continue to do so. We greatly thank you for your tireless effort.
On our part, we must practice more responsible journalism and editing. That this comic was published reveals holes in our editing practices, which are currently being addressed.
In reevaluating our policies, we hope to ensure The Observer will be able to recover from this low point in its almost 50-year history and once again be able to serve the Notre Dame and Saint Mary’s community with the dignity it deserves.
We would like to thank all of those who have called, e-mailed, written and visited our offices this week in outrage.
The content of The Mobile Party is in no way representative of the views and opinions of The Observer or the Editorial Board. We hope that as we work together to address this serious issue, we will be able to regain your trust.
We vow to continue to represent the University of Notre Dame and Saint Mary’s College in a way that is respectful and accepting of each member of our community.
Apart from the bizarre reference to Sen Reid's comments about President Obama, it strikes me as sincere, but hardly sufficient.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Replies to this message:
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Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 4902 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 2 of 21 (543192)
01-16-2010 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
01-15-2010 11:53 PM


The news hit me as a surprise, too. I first heard about this on my way home from work earlier today. Supposedly, the students who drew this comic wanted to satirize the gay hate that is still present on campus. Apparently, the joke didn't turn out as funny as the author thought.
I do, however, find it ironic that out of all the universities out there to have done this it has to be Notre Dame, the same Notre Dame that's well known for its foot ball program. So stereotypical...
Edited by Species8472, : No reason given.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 3 of 21 (543195)
01-16-2010 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
01-15-2010 11:53 PM


Apart from the bizarre reference to Sen Reid's comments about President Obama, it strikes me as sincere, but hardly sufficient.
Oh come on, it was a joke - I actually thought it was funny. Lets stop with the sensitivity bullshit. Do you think gays don't make hateful jokes toward heterosexuals? Trust me, they do. I've heard them, and those were funny too. And I've heard funny jokes told about every minority there is, some were hilarious (I'm sure everyone here can think of a fucked up racist joke they heard that made them laugh - be honest).
They are only words, in bad taste, but funny nonetheless - at least by my standards. And who are you or anyone else to tell me what I should find funny or in good/bad taste - can anyone say censorship...? And, so much for free speech, huh?
I've heard worse jokes, and funnier, than this one. Get over it.
This is a perfect example of a violation of free speech and exaggerated censorship:
quote:
The truth is, these comments should not be made at all...
Please... fuck that. So now they want to tell you how to think and what to say?
And here's some irony:
quote:
We vow to continue to represent the University of Notre Dame and Saint Mary’s College in a way that is respectful and accepting of each member of our community.
"...Now, everyone get back to drinking beer upside down from a funnel, and making fraternity pledges walk around campus dressed as women."
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Species8472
Junior Member (Idle past 4902 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 01-13-2010


Message 4 of 21 (543197)
01-16-2010 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by onifre
01-16-2010 3:28 AM


Onifre, normally I would agree with you. However, I do feel that they did go a tat overboard on this one. Yes, I did find the comic slightly funny. But a split second after the humor, the fact of violence dawned on me. Perhaps I'm too sensitive about this.
Anyway, personally, I don't think they were obligated to apologize. Just being PC, I guess.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 5 of 21 (543198)
01-16-2010 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Species8472
01-16-2010 3:40 AM


However, I do feel that they did go a tat overboard on this one. Yes, I did find the comic slightly funny. But a split second after the humor, the fact of violence dawned on me. Perhaps I'm too sensitive about this.
Cool. And that's also the point I'm trying to make. You read it, as an adult, judged it by your moral/ethical/whatever compass and found it distasteful. You then turn to the next page and continue reading.
There is no need to add the 'hate' and 'voilence' aspect to it, it's not warrented. You can't give it a quality you don't know for a fact it has. It was meant as a joke, that may have been a bit too distasteful. But going as far to say that it's hateful and promoted violence? Come on...that's a bit overboard.
They are just words.
Anyway, personally, I don't think they were obligated to apologize. Just being PC, I guess.
I agree. The PC cops are turning everyone into an apologizing puss.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2316 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 6 of 21 (543199)
01-16-2010 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by onifre
01-16-2010 3:28 AM


I'm with Oni on this one. Yes, it's very bad taste, and yes, I'm sure people will get offended by it, but fuck 'em. I get offended by people who get offended (so, yes, I sometimes offend myself, and yes, this is a joke ), now what are we going to do? Stop people from being offended?
Grow a pair, I say.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 7 of 21 (543203)
01-16-2010 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by onifre
01-16-2010 3:54 AM


onifre writes:
I agree. The PC cops are turning everyone into an apologizing puss.
That was my reaction, too, though I suppose venue has to be considered. If the Observer has established a reputation for a high level of temperance and quality that readers have come to expect then I suppose the apology makes sense. But if the apology is just a reaction to the reaction then of course the insincerity is what's really offensive.
--Percy

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1275 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 21 (543225)
01-16-2010 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by onifre
01-16-2010 3:28 AM


Let's get a couple of things straight.
Free speech doesn't mean free from repercussions. If you say something offensive to someone, that someone has the right to criticize you for it. What's more, the only censorship in the story is self-censorship on the part of the paper. If some governmental entity were to step up to the plate and try to punish those involved, then you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're missing the mark.
Was it funny? Ear of the beholder. Have I heard funnier and more offensive? Yes. I've probably told funnier and more offensive myself. But as Percy said, it's about context. I have a group of friends that I play poker with one or twice a year, and in that venue, we all say things that none of us would say in mixed company.
quote:
The truth is, these comments should not be made at all...
oni writes:
Please... fuck that. So now they want to tell you how to think and what to say?
Yes, they do. So what? Isn't that exactly what you are doing? It's a marketplace of ideas and they are expressing theirs, something they have a right to do, just as much as you do. In an ideal world, I would expect an institution that purports to preach love to condemn hateful speech against anyone. Of course, that's never really been what the Catholic Church has been about.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3312 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 21 (543237)
01-16-2010 2:06 PM


Speaking of more offensive things to say, one time a buddy of mine, a cop from down south who's bloodline is pure German (you can see this in him) with a German accent, told me that one time he was sent to riot control where a group of Jews were protesting. Can't remember about what. The protesters were making a fire, though. Anyway, one protester came up to him and started giving him a hard time. One thing led to another and the Jew asked my friend where he was from. My friend said "from Germany, and I hear you guys make a great fire..." It took like half a year for the complaints to stop.
Moral of the story, if it feels good saying/doing it, it's probably not a good idea.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5027 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 10 of 21 (543253)
01-16-2010 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
01-15-2010 11:53 PM


Apart from the bizarre reference to Sen Reid's comments about President Obama, it strikes me as sincere, but hardly sufficient.
What more do you want? Public self-flagellation? 1000 hail-Marys? What would be 'sufficient' to remove the 'offence' in your opinion?
Free speech doesn't mean free from repercussions. If you say something offensive to someone, that someone has the right to criticize you for it.
Being criticized is one thing. Being pressurised to apologise/retract what you said because someone was offended by it is something totally different.
Edited by Legend, : No reason given.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 11 of 21 (543259)
01-16-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
01-15-2010 11:53 PM


What Reid's (got to do) got to do with it
the bizarre reference to Sen Reid's comments about President Obama
Right, what they are alluding to here is the misfortunate excuse that the leftist editorial staff who would have normally taken charge of oppressing these cartoonists were totally preoccupied with a chink in their ideology, trying to spin their way out of truths like this one is hard work.
Reid's defenders don't have much to work with. Their best idea so far is that at least he said "Negro" and not "Nigra."
Liberals are saying that since Reid was pointing out Obama's pale hue in support of his run for the presidency, it was OK to praise his skin color and non-Negro dialect. (Reid is denying reports that in 2007 he said to Obama: "You should run. You people are good at that.")
http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/article.cgi?article=350
This sort of thing presents a huge problem for the parasitic donkey klan, because it reveals unequivocally that, even though we now have a not-entirely-quite-white(baby) president, the actual political machine is still as racist as it always has been.
Democrats couldn't win an election without the black vote, but the Democratic Party keeps treating blacks like stage props, wheeling them out for photo-ops and marches now and then but almost never putting them in charge of anything important.
President Bush appointed the first black secretary of state and then the first black female secretary of state. Meanwhile, the closest black woman to Bill Clinton was his secretary, Betty Currie.
The one sitting black Supreme Court justice, Clarence Thomas, was appointed by a Republican.
The head of the Republican National Committee is black -- medium-skinned, but liberals treated Michael Steele like a dark-skinned black when they threw Oreo cookies at him during the Maryland gubernatorial campaign in 2002.
After the 2000 election, Democrats had a chance to make one of the rare smart Democrats, Donna Brazile, head of the Democratic National Committee. Brazile had just run a perfectly respectable campaign on behalf of that bumbling buffoon Al Gore.
She also happens to be black. Again, blacks give 90 percent of their votes to the Democrats.
But the Democrats skipped over Brazile and handed the DNC chairmanship to the goofy white guy in lime green pants, Howard Dean.
. . .
As for the main topic, the best I can tell you is, if some cartoon about funny tools repeating tool noises actually hurts you, you ain't the sharpest mothefucker in the shed yourself. Do not be as silly as the fundamentalist muslim pawnshop. If some cartoon has yanked at your low-riders to reveal that you have holes in your underoos, don't get mad at the cartoonists. Get mad at the fuckers who sold you them sorry overpriced low-quality briefs by exploiting your comic-strip mentality.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2718 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 12 of 21 (543268)
01-16-2010 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by subbie
01-15-2010 11:53 PM


Hi, Subbie.
Just for the record, I didn't even get the comic at first. The word "fruit" didn't register as strongly as "vegetable," so I was trying to figure out why the Notre Dame community was worried about offending old people with dementia or car-accident victims in comas.
I was completely confused until I read how people responded to you.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 21 (543272)
01-16-2010 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by onifre
01-16-2010 3:28 AM


And here's some irony:
I thought the headline above the "comic" (which I thought was rather pedestrian) was hilarious in it's precognition.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 14 of 21 (543274)
01-16-2010 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
01-16-2010 5:03 AM


If the Observer has established a reputation for a high level of temperance and quality that readers have come to expect then I suppose the apology makes sense.
Fair enough. I can agree with that.
But if the apology is just a reaction to the reaction then of course the insincerity is what's really offensive.
It seems as though this is almost always the case. Its an apology for the sake of apologizing. And it always comes across to me as insincere.
- Oni

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 15 of 21 (543276)
01-16-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by subbie
01-16-2010 11:16 AM


If you say something offensive to someone, that someone has the right to criticize you for it.
Haha! Subbie, I deal with this a lot. My only point, when ever someone gets offended at what I say is, don't take my words so serious and don't take your opinion of my words that serious either.
Criticize all you want, that is your right - but know for a fact that I couldn't care less. Nor do I think the creators of this comic do either.
Yes, they do. So what? Isn't that exactly what you are doing?
Well they shouldn't. They should allow adults to make their own decisions.
And, no, that is not what I'm doing. I'm saying let people make up their own minds. Let them think for themselves.
In an ideal world, I would expect an institution that purports to preach love to condemn hateful speech against anyone. Of course, that's never really been what the Catholic Church has been about.
Especially when their holy book has more offensive material towards homosexuals, and actually advocates the murder of homosexuals. A bit hypocritical don't you think?
- Oni

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