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Author Topic:   Did Jesus die before he was born?
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 37 of 91 (47341)
07-24-2003 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Souljah1
07-24-2003 7:23 PM


Re: Ignorance Abounds
quote:
Well How about we all stop debating and find ourselves a time-machine so we can go back 2000 years to the time of Christ. Looks like thats the only way people are going to believe Christ was real. Oh nah lets not waste our time, even the ones who saw him rejected him. And they were the ones who had reason to believe only in what they could see.
Yeah, let's not attempt to use the minds we have to discover the truth through exploration of the natural world... let's just believe what you were taught! And they say faith and reason are compatible?
If you think debating is pointless, you're rejecting the use of an ability that you would say God gave us. Why do we have brains if we're not supposed to use them?

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 59 of 91 (54368)
09-07-2003 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


Sorry, I multiple-posted, see below.
[This message has been edited by zephyr, 09-07-2003]

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 60 of 91 (54369)
09-07-2003 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


Excuse my multiple post. Server was giving me a lot of errors.
[This message has been edited by zephyr, 09-07-2003]

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 61 of 91 (54371)
09-07-2003 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


Admin! Hey... can you delete these posts? I keep getting 500 server errors (coupled with abysmal response times) and somehow managed to quad-post... my bad....
[This message has been edited by zephyr, 09-07-2003]

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 62 of 91 (54372)
09-07-2003 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


I think this is the last dummy post. Somebody kill me.
[This message has been edited by zephyr, 09-07-2003]

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 Message 58 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 4:54 PM ichthus33 has not replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 63 of 91 (54373)
09-07-2003 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 4:54 PM


quote:
First off, who is C.S Lewis? I've never heard of him or read any of his text.
C.S. Lewis is one of the best-known authors of Christian literature that ever lived. He's rather famous even among atheists. Chronicles of Narnia, The Great Divorce, Mere Christianity, The Abolition of Man - any of those ring a bell?
quote:
And also can you prove to me that what Jesus says in the Bible is false? There is more proof that he is true. On what grounds do you make this claim?
There is plenty of evidence that the texts we have about Jesus were written well after his death, not necessarily by the claimed authors, that they borrow quite a bit of text from one another without acknowledgement, and that they have changed over time. The truth about Jesus' life is very much in question.
quote:
We have to look at this in plain clear perspective. What does anyone in the Bible have to gain by lying and making things up?
Shall we start with religious leaders who had plenty to gain from controlling their people? These are pretty obvious possibilities. Your lack of perspectie is showing.
quote:
The author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit of God. How else could the Bible flow together so perfectly? The Bible was written over a span of 1800 years, and over 40 people had a hand in writing it.
It doesn't flow together perfectly. People have argued and killed each other, almost since the very beginning, over their inability to agree on what the Bible says. For example: does the Law still apply today? I ask because Jesus himself said he did not come to abolish it. Yet there is a huge number of supposed literalists today who don't follow even a small portion of the Law.
quote:
Over 200,000 people around the world are being saved every single day. That is just unheard of. God is making a great move in the world today through missionaries around the world.
Where do you get your figures? Last I checked, the fastest-growing religion in the world was Islam!
quote:
And it is very apparent that He is alive and well. No other religous figure has ever done anything like this and never will.
Ahem. Christians are still a minority in the world and Mohammed's followers are growing faster.
quote:
Because Christianity is not a religion of good works but rather a relationship with God himself. Good works are just the fruit of the nature of Christ. And any Christian can tell you that once you are saved, you know the truth and see the lies of the enemy clearer.
I could just as easily tell you that I can more easily see the hypocrisy, deceit, cruelty, and delusion of (some) Christians now that I'm an atheist. I spent the vast majority of my life as a totally sincere Christian and now, with the rose-colored stained glass windows lifted, I look back on all that time with regret. The same is true of MANY people on this forum. It doesn't just go one way, my friend. The world is not divided the way you were taught. There are good people on all sides of all fences (yes, there is more than one) and it's not easy to tell who is who. For example, I'm not your enemy, though I've used strong words in my response. I'm just telling it like it is.

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 85 of 91 (54466)
09-08-2003 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by mike the wiz
09-08-2003 10:54 AM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
quote:
You have all missed his point though havent you?
He was showing you that the bible does not say 'kill your enemy'
but rather love him.
It says both unequivocally in different places.
There are a lot of points flying back and forth here, and one of the major ones is that the Bible does not say the same thing about the same issue every time. That means it doesn't "flow together perfectly."
*****************************************************************
Pascal's wager indeed... I'll take my own wager any day over that one. I bet that if I live as if this is my one and only chance to do some good, love life, and love others, I will not regret it. If there is a supreme being watching over me, I trust that he/she/it understands my inability to make any honest conclusion regarding his/her/its existence and will make a decision about my entering any theoretical afterlife without regard to the multiplicity of confusing and quite evidently unreliable ancient mythologies and systems of rules that have been misused and abused by selfish and destructive human beings so much as to render all of them highly suspect.
Is that so unreasonable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 10:54 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2003 7:55 PM zephyr has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 89 of 91 (54488)
09-08-2003 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mike the wiz
09-08-2003 7:55 PM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
quote:
'Is that so unreasonable? '
I didn't say you were not free to do this! Besides that's your business, I am not allowed to judge you.
'It says both unequivocally in different places.'
I guess my point is that Jesus said love your enemy, and if your honest you will admitt that, as for the other books, well I don't know if they say love your enemy, rather than hate him.
Point taken. You are absolutely right, and it's one of the greatest things Jesus said. (if he actually said it)
I understand you're making your point outside of the context of the OT verses with which you aren't familiar. They are hard for most of us to exclude, because they involve a whole lot of striking down your enemy and burning his town to the ground. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's more to the issue.

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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4570 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 90 of 91 (54489)
09-08-2003 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mike the wiz
09-08-2003 7:55 PM


Re: Another destroyed thread.
By the way, the part of my post after the "*****" was in response to icthus's last post, which paraphrased Pascal's Wager. Excuse my laziness... I should have made that more clear. That paragraph wasn't directed to you.

This message is a reply to:
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