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Author Topic:   Smelling The Coffee: 2010
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 211 of 270 (543690)
01-20-2010 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by bluescat48
01-18-2010 6:07 PM


Re: It's a Republic Stupid
Then it would not be direct democracy. Each comment must be hea4rd by all not a mismash of a number of comments that no one could listen to at the same time
First off, democracy is rule by the people (the "demos"). That's the main thing. There is no rule that says that all comments must be heard by all people, or vice versa. If someone chooses to ignore certain comments or certain people that's their prerogative and their right. What matters is that people have a chance to hear and be heard. In the republic you live in most people don't even get a chance to comment, let alone ensure they're heard and you don't seem to mind, so why are you objecting in the first place?
In a direct democracy the bills are formulated, encoded, debated and voted on by all citizens.
Says who? In a democracy any citizen must :
a) have a chance to be heard
b) have a chance to vote on any issues that's going to affect his/her life.
Who formulates and encodes the bill is not that important as long as the forumation and encoding is done to the request of and in the manner specified by the public.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by bluescat48, posted 01-18-2010 6:07 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by ZenMonkey, posted 01-20-2010 12:01 PM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 212 of 270 (543692)
01-20-2010 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Asgara
01-18-2010 8:59 PM


That's not democracy!
If a majority of people in your district thought it was a good idea to stone you you would be ok with that? That would be direct democracy and an example of "mob rule."
No it wouldn't! That would be Ochlocracy, (rule by mob, government by intimidation) or Anarchy (lack of any rule). What makes you think that (direct) democracy has no judicial, no law enforcement, no constitution ?

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Asgara, posted 01-18-2010 8:59 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 9:28 AM Legend has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 213 of 270 (543698)
01-20-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Legend
01-20-2010 9:11 AM


Re: That's not democracy!
What makes you think that (direct) democracy has no judicial, no law enforcement, no constitution?
What you have described so far sounds more like the tyranny of the majority than any recognisable form of democracy.
In your setup can the majority vote to overrule the constitution by simply voting to do so?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Legend, posted 01-20-2010 9:11 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 9:30 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 218 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 10:24 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 245 by Legend, posted 01-21-2010 10:57 AM Straggler has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 214 of 270 (543699)
01-20-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
01-20-2010 9:28 AM


Re: That's not democracy!
Also, who would determine what was in this constitution in the first place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 9:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 9:38 AM Huntard has not replied
 Message 246 by Legend, posted 01-21-2010 11:19 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 215 of 270 (543703)
01-20-2010 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Huntard
01-20-2010 9:30 AM


Re: That's not democracy!
Also, who would determine what was in this constitution in the first place?
The majority

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 9:30 AM Huntard has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 216 of 270 (543716)
01-20-2010 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Straggler
01-20-2010 8:23 AM


Re: Indoctrination
What do you think the answer is Oni?
That depends on what the question is.
Legalize pot, shrooms and prostitution...that may be my answer to everything.
Seriously though, my answer to what question specifically?
Which to my mind makes Winston even more cynical than you.
Give a brotha a little more time. I can get there!
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 8:23 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 10:24 AM onifre has replied
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 12:49 PM onifre has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 217 of 270 (543717)
01-20-2010 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by onifre
01-20-2010 10:21 AM


Re: Indoctrination
onifre writes:
Legalize pot, shrooms and prostitution...that may be my answer to everything.
You're saying my country has no problems?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 10:21 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 10:25 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 221 by caffeine, posted 01-20-2010 10:50 AM Huntard has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 218 of 270 (543718)
01-20-2010 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
01-20-2010 9:28 AM


Re: That's not democracy!
What you have described so far sounds more like the tyranny of the majority than any recognisable form of democracy.
Yet this is the very system implemented in workers unions. It seems to work well for them, having the workers in control of their wages and benefits.
So why can't it work for our government?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 9:28 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 11:44 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 219 of 270 (543719)
01-20-2010 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Huntard
01-20-2010 10:24 AM


Re: Indoctrination
You're saying my country has no problems?
None that anyone gives a shit about.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 10:24 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 10:37 AM onifre has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 220 of 270 (543720)
01-20-2010 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by onifre
01-20-2010 10:25 AM


Re: Indoctrination
onifre writes:
None that anyone gives a shit about.
True.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 10:25 AM onifre has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 221 of 270 (543724)
01-20-2010 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Huntard
01-20-2010 10:24 AM


Re: Indoctrination
quote:
Legalize pot, shrooms and prostitution...that may be my answer to everything.
You're saying my country has no problems?
Of course you have problems. You banned shrooms!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 10:24 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Huntard, posted 01-20-2010 12:04 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 222 of 270 (543734)
01-20-2010 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by onifre
01-20-2010 10:24 AM


Re: That's not democracy!
Yet this is the very system implemented in workers unions. It seems to work well for them, having the workers in control of their wages and benefits.
So why can't it work for our government?
At a very localised level it might. Where essentially the group is small enough that what is good for the majrity is good for all.
But nationally? Huge groups of competing and dispirate interests that number in the millions even if they are a minority. No.
Are you really advocating Legend's mad American Idol style of "democracy"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 10:24 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 12:04 PM Straggler has replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 223 of 270 (543740)
01-20-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Legend
01-20-2010 9:04 AM


You realize, of course, that that's completely insane. Right?
Legend writes:
Who formulates and encodes the bill is not that important as long as the forumation and encoding is done to the request of and in the manner specified by the public.
Do you have any idea what legislation actually entails? Consider this.
quote:
The average statute passed by the 109th Congressthe latest session for which figures are availableclocked in at around 15 pages, according to the Senate Library. And the recent law authorizing President Obama to give gold medals to the Apollo 11 astronauts on the 40th anniversary of the moon landing filled just two pages. But major spending bills frequently run more than 1,000. This year's stimulus bill was 1,100 pages. The climate bill that the House passed in June was 1,200 pages. Bill Clinton's 1993 health care plan was famously 1,342 pages long. Budget bills can run even longer: In 2007, President Bush's ran to 1,482 pages.
Over the last several decades, the number of bills passed by Congress has declined: In 1948, Congress passed 906 bills. In 2006, it passed only 482. At the same time, the total number of pages of legislation has gone up from slightly more than 2,000 pages in 1948 to more than 7,000 pages in 2006. (The average bill length increased over the same period from 2.5 pages to 15.2 pages.)
Now you can blithely argue that not all of that legislation was necessary, and I won't be inclined to disagree, but right now that's what it takes to govern the US. To think even for a moment that the public is going to have any idea at all what is in those 7000 pages each year is crazy. Members of congress don't even read the bills they pass themselves - they have aides for that. Moreover, I think that in fact it matters very much who writes it. Self-appointed adminstrators? Or - just maybe - elected representatives? In that case, how is your proposal substantially different from what we have now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Legend, posted 01-20-2010 9:04 AM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by onifre, posted 01-20-2010 12:13 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 224 of 270 (543742)
01-20-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Straggler
01-20-2010 11:44 AM


Re: That's not democracy!
At a very localised level it might.
Well the IBEW, which the 'I' stands for international, has close to a million members covering the US, Canada and South America (Panama). There are issues covered by all the workers, as well as issues that are decided on locally. It covers both basis, and that's just the electrical union, which is the smallest union, along with the plumbers union.
The Teamsters have 1,402,878 members, and like the electrical union, it is also international and there are issues voted on by all memebers and then local issues.
So it is not something that can't be done on a large scale. Obviously much work would need to be done to oversee the entire process, but the same was done in the conception of this current system. No difference, it just needs good minds behind it.
Are you really advocating Legend's mad American Idol style of "democracy"?
No. At least not yet since, admittedly, I haven't read all the post in this thread. I'm advocating for a citizen run government, as opposed to the current corporate run government that ONLY has its intrests at heart. My points to Briterican were in reference to his distrust of the general public to make conscious, educated and informed decisions about their own lives. I believe this is a bad view to have, and it can be a good system, run by the citizens, if all basis are covered.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 11:44 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2010 12:37 PM onifre has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 225 of 270 (543743)
01-20-2010 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by caffeine
01-20-2010 10:50 AM


Re: Indoctrination
caffeine writes:
Of course you have problems. You banned shrooms!
Well, technically, it's illegal to sell them, yes. But don't think you can't pick them up at any good smartshop anyway. I mean, technically, pot's forbidden too.
Also, there's this nice little way to be able to use them legally too. If you say you're part of a Druidic circle, you're allowed to use them, since apparent;y, that's what that " religion" does, according to its definition here. Guess how many "druids" we have

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by caffeine, posted 01-20-2010 10:50 AM caffeine has not replied

  
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