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Author | Topic: Smelling The Coffee: 2010 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Then it would not be direct democracy. Each comment must be hea4rd by all not a mismash of a number of comments that no one could listen to at the same time First off, democracy is rule by the people (the "demos"). That's the main thing. There is no rule that says that all comments must be heard by all people, or vice versa. If someone chooses to ignore certain comments or certain people that's their prerogative and their right. What matters is that people have a chance to hear and be heard. In the republic you live in most people don't even get a chance to comment, let alone ensure they're heard and you don't seem to mind, so why are you objecting in the first place?
In a direct democracy the bills are formulated, encoded, debated and voted on by all citizens. Says who? In a democracy any citizen must :a) have a chance to be heard b) have a chance to vote on any issues that's going to affect his/her life. Who formulates and encodes the bill is not that important as long as the forumation and encoding is done to the request of and in the manner specified by the public. "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
If a majority of people in your district thought it was a good idea to stone you you would be ok with that? That would be direct democracy and an example of "mob rule." No it wouldn't! That would be Ochlocracy, (rule by mob, government by intimidation) or Anarchy (lack of any rule). What makes you think that (direct) democracy has no judicial, no law enforcement, no constitution ? "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
What makes you think that (direct) democracy has no judicial, no law enforcement, no constitution? What you have described so far sounds more like the tyranny of the majority than any recognisable form of democracy. In your setup can the majority vote to overrule the constitution by simply voting to do so?
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Also, who would determine what was in this constitution in the first place?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Also, who would determine what was in this constitution in the first place? The majority
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
What do you think the answer is Oni? That depends on what the question is. Legalize pot, shrooms and prostitution...that may be my answer to everything. Seriously though, my answer to what question specifically?
Which to my mind makes Winston even more cynical than you.
Give a brotha a little more time. I can get there! - Oni
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
onifre writes:
You're saying my country has no problems?
Legalize pot, shrooms and prostitution...that may be my answer to everything.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
What you have described so far sounds more like the tyranny of the majority than any recognisable form of democracy. Yet this is the very system implemented in workers unions. It seems to work well for them, having the workers in control of their wages and benefits. So why can't it work for our government? - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
You're saying my country has no problems? None that anyone gives a shit about. - Oni
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
onifre writes:
True.
None that anyone gives a shit about.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1024 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
quote: You're saying my country has no problems? Of course you have problems. You banned shrooms!
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Yet this is the very system implemented in workers unions. It seems to work well for them, having the workers in control of their wages and benefits. So why can't it work for our government? At a very localised level it might. Where essentially the group is small enough that what is good for the majrity is good for all. But nationally? Huge groups of competing and dispirate interests that number in the millions even if they are a minority. No. Are you really advocating Legend's mad American Idol style of "democracy"?
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4510 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
Legend writes: Who formulates and encodes the bill is not that important as long as the forumation and encoding is done to the request of and in the manner specified by the public. Do you have any idea what legislation actually entails? Consider this.
quote: Now you can blithely argue that not all of that legislation was necessary, and I won't be inclined to disagree, but right now that's what it takes to govern the US. To think even for a moment that the public is going to have any idea at all what is in those 7000 pages each year is crazy. Members of congress don't even read the bills they pass themselves - they have aides for that. Moreover, I think that in fact it matters very much who writes it. Self-appointed adminstrators? Or - just maybe - elected representatives? In that case, how is your proposal substantially different from what we have now?
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
At a very localised level it might. Well the IBEW, which the 'I' stands for international, has close to a million members covering the US, Canada and South America (Panama). There are issues covered by all the workers, as well as issues that are decided on locally. It covers both basis, and that's just the electrical union, which is the smallest union, along with the plumbers union. The Teamsters have 1,402,878 members, and like the electrical union, it is also international and there are issues voted on by all memebers and then local issues. So it is not something that can't be done on a large scale. Obviously much work would need to be done to oversee the entire process, but the same was done in the conception of this current system. No difference, it just needs good minds behind it.
Are you really advocating Legend's mad American Idol style of "democracy"? No. At least not yet since, admittedly, I haven't read all the post in this thread. I'm advocating for a citizen run government, as opposed to the current corporate run government that ONLY has its intrests at heart. My points to Briterican were in reference to his distrust of the general public to make conscious, educated and informed decisions about their own lives. I believe this is a bad view to have, and it can be a good system, run by the citizens, if all basis are covered. - Oni
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
caffeine writes:
Well, technically, it's illegal to sell them, yes. But don't think you can't pick them up at any good smartshop anyway. I mean, technically, pot's forbidden too. Of course you have problems. You banned shrooms! Also, there's this nice little way to be able to use them legally too. If you say you're part of a Druidic circle, you're allowed to use them, since apparent;y, that's what that " religion" does, according to its definition here. Guess how many "druids" we have
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