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Author Topic:   Did Jesus die before he was born?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 55 of 91 (54301)
09-07-2003 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 12:11 AM


Ya know... I have allways found the fullfilling prophecies argument an interesting one. Set aside the fact the the prophecies are ambiguious at best, and just plain wrong in other cases, but why do we trust that they were fullfilld?
I mean, why couldn't this Jesus guy have been manufactured, shoehorned into the prophesies. Maybe he was a great human rights activist (for his tiem anyway), he died for his cause, and in order that he may not be forgoten (not to mention to further their socio-political ends) his followers began to do some OT revisionisim, exageration, and distortion in order to get the prophesy to be fullfilld.
This isn't new. Even today here in Miami were I live, some of these crazy cubans think Elian gonzales is the reincarnation of a saint, and that he is fortold by Biblical prophecy. Another one is the recently debunked Bible Code nonsense.
The Romans and Greeks did this too. How many countless rhistorical figures don't have partialy mythical backgrounds were they meet the Gods etc.
If I wanted to further a cause what better propaganda than to fit it into the cultures mythology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 12:11 AM ichthus33 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 69 of 91 (54396)
09-07-2003 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 9:08 PM


A good test would be internal consistency, consistency with other texts during the time, consistent historicaly, and general probability of the account.
The Bible fails on alot of these levels.
Internal Consistency:
It's texts clash with each other on a number of major issues, such as the creation account, virgin birth, Jesus' liniage, etc. You can read more indepth about these in the errancy forum.
Consistent with other contemporary documents:
There are no extrabiblical documents that exist today with an account of Jesus. No Roman records of such an execution, etc.
Historical Conistency:
The Jews in Egypt have no historical basis. No archological record, nore any record by egyptions exist. Likewise, There is no historical, archeological, or written evidence for Jesus.
Probability:
Well.... It's obviously about mythic Godmen saving the world from an army of darkness, soooooo, seems kinda improbable to me
Not to mention the faults in Logic. This is my favoright one, see if you can follow me here:
God = Jesus.
So, the Gist of the salvation story is:
God Loves us so much that he sends himself to kill himself to save us from him burning us up in a lake of fire. He did this because he loves us, so much infact, that if we don't belive in him, he will burn us up anyway.
Another interesting logic fault comes in the Origional sin issue:
If humans went outa control in the garden, why didn't God just destroy the world and start anew? Why all the pain and hardship. He coulda just hit 'delete' and spared everyone from hell.
So why do we have sin?
Much much more

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 9:08 PM ichthus33 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 77 of 91 (54425)
09-08-2003 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 2:50 AM


I was going to answer to your previous reply to me, but I find your ignorance, and selfricheous judgemntalisim too astonishing to not adress:
If a so called Christian does such things he is not a Christian, he needs to repent and be saved a Christian would not do such things. Also read the Qumran. It is very clear that the true muslim is the terroist, and the peace loving ones aren't reading their Qumrans. The terrorist is doing what they were told by the Qumran. Don't take my word for it, read it and there is no doubt. It repeats over and over kill the infedels kill them! And they claim that they kill by self defense, if you say Allah isn't God you are attacking them so they say they have the right to kill you. This is all in the Qumran, read it folks. There is no such teaching in Christianity.
Have you ever read the Bible?? It is probably one of the bloodiest books ever!
My favoright sicko passage, still being Gen 31:1-17
Here we have a heartwarming tale about how God orders moses to go out and kill a bunch of women and chilldren, take the virgins captive, and presumably rape them.
Oh so sweet and cuddly, all that nice Christian sentiment.
Whatever you may find vile and repugnant about the Qurans war stories, are no diffrent than those described in the bible. And your pathetic attempt at a justification by saying "no real christian would blah blah...." is just that, pathetic! The same claim can be made by the muslim, or any other religion.
Fanatical extremists exist in every grupe and your tradition has no place in pointing the finger. Much blood has been spilt in the name of christianity, in the Bible it'self!
Read the Old testament, read all the unspeakable things GOD asks people to do!!!
ok... enugh of that...
My next post will adress your previous replay to me. Stay tuned...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 2:50 AM ichthus33 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 79 of 91 (54430)
09-08-2003 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ichthus33
09-07-2003 11:56 PM


The virgin birth clashes with itself? Ok, Jesus's liniage is both from Mary and from Joseph. Jesus was not Joseph's blood son, but was still considered his adoptive son. So the Geneologies are from seperate family tree's. One Mary's one Josephs.
Yes, we have been up and down this argument in the forum. Fact is, it can't be marys line because the bible clearly says within the narative, Joseph who was son of Heli, then in the other, Jopseph the son of some other guy. Not to mention the fact that this totaly disproves the whole descended from david crap.
Belive what you want, but the amount of interpretation, and mental gymnastics involved ought to give you a clue that perhaps it dosn't say what you think it dose.
The Bible doesn't contridict any legitimate history. Just saying that the Jews were not in Egypt doesnt prove a thing. Although I believe that the Bible and it's message are 100% true.
The Jews were not in Egypt, no egyptian recorded their presense, the plagues, nothing. Egyptians kept very good history.
The Global flood happend while Egypt was at the peak of it's culture, yet it went on uninterupted, as did the Greeks, Chinese, Hindus, whathave you... none of them recorded a Global flood. So, that didn't happen.
No senseus by Herod was ever done, neither were first born chilldren killd, as the great record keepers that were the Romans didn't seem to nnotice it at all.
Evolution sounds much more improbable in my opinion. Who said anything about mythic Godmen lol. And there is a real army of evil. Evil is as real as good is. I could say so much about it too
I consider men who are Gods avatar on earth, walking around doing miracles, and claiming to fight usnseen devils, a mythic Godman. Evolution is at least an observable and scientificaly verafiable reality, if you would open your mind just a tad you may see that most of the world isn't deluded.
Jesus is the one and only Son Of God. God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3 Persons, 1 nature, 1 mind.
Name one perfect man besides Jesus. No one is perfect. We have all lied, had an evil thought or done some other sin. God is perfect and he is just. He is holy, he can't let sin near him. So anyone who has sinned (eveyone), can't live with God in heaven. Sin must be judged. God can't pretend that we haven't sinned. Jesus's death on the cross was a payment for every sin that would ever be commited. All we have to do is believe. God the Father accepted Jesus's death as a payment to all sin because Jesus never sinned, but gave his life for all of us.
What does this have to do with weather or not the Jusus myth is logical?
If God is Jesus, then he killd himself, to apease himself. Why does that make sense?
Not to mention the fact that you fail to see the primative basis for Christianity. The idea of blood sacrifice to apease an angry diety. Other cultures throw virgins into angry volcanos, or sacrifice goats.
Heck the Jews used to sacrificce animals to God. So tell me, why does God want a dead goat? Whats the point? I think that's just the sillyest thing I have ever heard.
What would we be worth if he just created us and then threw us away? If he were to do that then we wouldn't have free will. He'd kill us everytime we sinned and then make us over again, and that would never end. Instead he provided a way for us to get closer to him instead of just tossing us in the trash. All we have to do is believe.
ummm... to tell you the truth, if all this BS about hell is true, I would have rather not been born, Because God sure made it hard to swallow his crazy tall tale. Not to mention all the poor inocent non-christians who just happend to be born into other cultures. God should have niped it in the bud with Adam and Eve, cuz then he woulden't have to wory about hell.
It seems to me, that with your philosphy, God is wasting all our time. I propose all humans should stop having babies, because the less people, the less unsaved. Don't you agree?
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 09-08-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ichthus33, posted 09-07-2003 11:56 PM ichthus33 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 80 of 91 (54432)
09-08-2003 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 3:38 AM


The passage I quoted to you was specifficaly against people who didn't belive in Yaweh. You can find dozens of other verses like it.
And your beloved Christianity is based on the OT, and the God is presumably the same. So he said to do those things!
If you had actually read the Quaran, and taken the context, you would have seen that those verses you revile are what mohamed tells his warriors to do when he was in bloody combat with the infedels. Moses does the same, David does the same, etc.
It's no diffrent. Now if some radical fundamentalists from either grupe want to apply the ltter of it to our time, then you got some violent terorists.
It has nothing to do with the books, it's the people who interpret them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 3:38 AM ichthus33 has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 82 of 91 (54435)
09-08-2003 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ichthus33
09-08-2003 4:00 AM


pascals wager...
I suppose that's one way to look at it. I myself never found it apealing, if you let that sort of thing bully you into a system of thought, who knows who else might do it to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ichthus33, posted 09-08-2003 4:00 AM ichthus33 has not replied

  
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