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Author Topic:   Math's Arbitrary Non-Necessary Necessarily-Disconnected Conventional Link to Reality
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 6 of 24 (544621)
01-27-2010 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
01-24-2010 8:36 PM


Re: Math's Arbitrary Non-Necessary Necessarily-Disconnected Conventional Link to Reality
Specifically, the issue at point is ... the foundations of the entire system of Mathematics (what I called MATHSYSTEM) in relation to the real world (what I called REALWORLDSYSTEM).
That's not really an issue. Most mathematicians will tell you that mathematics is not about the real world.
You seem to be confused by the fact that mathematicians sometimes say that their mathematics is real. However, as Rrhain tried to point out, that's more of a philosophical issue.
The major philosophies of mathematics are:
  • Platonism: mathematical objects exist in a world of ideal platonic forms (sometimes loosely described as "Plato's heaven".
  • Realism (or mathematical realism): this is just another name for platonism.
  • Fictionalism: mathematical objects (such as numbers) are useful fictions.
  • Intuitionism: mathematical objects exist only in the intuitions of people (particular, of mathematicians).
  • Constructivism: mathematics is a science of what we can construct mathematically.
  • Formalism: mathematicians make meaningless formal marks, and play rule-based games with these marks.
In practice, most mathematicians are platonists. A few are fictionalists, but you would probably have difficulty distinguishing between platonists and fictionalists. constructivists and intuitionists have much in common. In particular, they tend to be skeptical of much that platonists say about infinite sets. I am not convinced that there are any actual formalists, so formalism is mostly a fall back position used to explain to skeptics (such as you) what it is that mathematicians do.
I consider myself a fictionalist.
I have never asked an intuitionist about whether 0.9999... is equal to 1. That's partly because I don't actually know any intuitionists in real life, though I know of some. My best guess is that intuitionists and constructivists would agree that 0.9999... is equal to 1. That they are equal is a matter of well accepted convention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 01-24-2010 8:36 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 01-27-2010 3:06 PM nwr has replied
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 01-27-2010 4:22 PM nwr has replied
 Message 14 by Iblis, posted 01-27-2010 8:50 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 9 of 24 (544624)
01-27-2010 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by cavediver
01-27-2010 3:06 PM


Re: Math's Arbitrary Non-Necessary Necessarily-Disconnected Conventional Link to Reality
My constructivist friend denies the existence of the limit implied by .9999~, but accepts .9999~ symbollically as a representation of 1.
Interesting. Thanks.
ABE:
ABE: sorry, how rude. Good to see you around
No big deal, and not rude at all. (I asked for reinstatement so I could comment in this thread).
Edited by nwr, : add comment on edited change in the post to which this was responding.

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 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 01-27-2010 3:06 PM cavediver has not replied

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 Message 16 by Jazzns, posted 01-28-2010 11:01 AM nwr has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 13 of 24 (544640)
01-27-2010 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
01-27-2010 4:22 PM


Re: Math's Arbitrary Non-Necessary Necessarily-Disconnected Conventional Link to Real
I guess by those standards I too would be a Fictionalist/Intuitionalist.
You fit more as a constructivist or intuitionist. The intuitionists take the view that there are no infinite decimal expansions, only finite ones. Fictionalists don't have a problem dealing with fictions, so most would not have a problem with infinite decimal expansions.
In the particular case of 0.9999..., what we have is a recurring decimal expansion. And that's different from an infinite decimal expansion. We can actually have a notation for recurring decimals that only requires writing down finitely many symbols. While a platonist would take that notation as a shorthand for an infinite decimal expansion, a constructivist or intuitionist might take it as a separate notation in its own right which does not require anything infinite. I think that's what cavediver's constructivist friend was implying (see Message 8).

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 Message 11 by Jon, posted 01-27-2010 4:22 PM Jon has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 17 of 24 (544795)
01-28-2010 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jazzns
01-28-2010 11:01 AM


Re: Math's Arbitrary Non-Necessary Necessarily-Disconnected Conventional Link to Reality
I'll note that you replied to me, but quoted text from cavediver.
Interesting, would your friend also deny the correctness of the discipline of calculus?
As far as I know, constructivists don't have a principled objection to calculus as calculus. But they do object to some of the thing that are done in calculus. They would object to examples of a nowhere continuous function or a nowhere differentiable function, because those examples are non-constructive.
Perhaps cavediver can further comment, since he has a constructivist friend. The closest I came was attending a seminar by Errett Bishop, and that was many years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jazzns, posted 01-28-2010 11:01 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 01-28-2010 4:43 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6410
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 23 of 24 (549414)
03-06-2010 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Jon
03-06-2010 10:03 PM


Sorites paradox
Jon writes:
Then, I grabbed one of those piles, picked it up, and dumped it onto the other pile. Imagine my shock to discover that, contrary to my original suspicion that the addition of my one pile to one other pile would yield two piles, I ended up with only one pile!
You have just bumped into a variation on the sorites paradox.
Jon writes:
I wish the mathematicians would have warned me of this little glitch in their system before I tried adding them.
It isn't a problem with the mathematics. It's an example of why mathematicians tell you that mathematics is not about reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Jon, posted 03-06-2010 10:03 PM Jon has not replied

  
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