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Author Topic:   What is Supernatural?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 31 of 230 (544788)
01-28-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by slevesque
01-27-2010 11:58 PM


Hi Slevesque,
Many physicists will say they believe it exists.
Again, who? From what I understand about it, it's a hypothesis based on empirical evidence.
I find it interesting, that despite an arrogant tone (frankly, you didn't give me this impression at all the first time we engaged in a discussion here on evc ...) you haven't even tried to give a definition of the word ''supernatural'' ...
I took that tone due to your complete dismissal of my points by simply pointing to a multiverse and assuming it established your point.
As for my definition of supernatural, I was clear in msg #4
quote:
It's a made up term that lacks any kind of conceptual description.
Then I guess we need a theoretical physicist to explain to my poor illiterate-self what outside of spacetime means ...
I think, iirc, cavediver has explained it many times to mean absolutely nothing. It, like supernatural, lacks any kind of conceptual description. There is no "outside of reality".
Our universe is detectable, therefore I can claim it exists.
Other universes are undetectable, therefore I cannot claim they exist.
Agreed.
Again, the best you can do is formulate a hypothesis.
I won't continue this discussion if you don't tone it down a bit. I am not obliged to feel your condescendance in your posts.
Cool.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by slevesque, posted 01-27-2010 11:58 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by slevesque, posted 01-28-2010 8:55 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 32 of 230 (544792)
01-28-2010 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Meldinoor
01-27-2010 1:10 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
But obviously I agree with you that nothing that isn't detectable in some fashion, can be shown to exist.
I would say that it can neither be shown nor claimed to exist, as in "exist in reality," because to do either, some element of empirical detection must come into play. At some point. If not, you are guessing at something that, for all extent and purposes, is a figment of your imagination.
In fact, how could you distinguish between the two if no manner of empirical detection is available?
- Oni

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 33 of 230 (544796)
01-28-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
01-27-2010 1:15 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
Well I would say it cannot be claimed to exist beyond guessing. Not that it cannot exist at all.
Ok. I agree. Which is how I explained it to Meldinor.
Anyone can guess that IPU's exist, but it's nothing more than a guess.
However this doesn't stop people claiming that inherently non-empirical things A) Do exist B) Have been somehow experienced C) Are thus "known" to exist or "evidenced" to exist.
For this to be the case, at some point, there has to be some level of empirical detection - I don't see how we get around that?
If 'experienced' then there, that's the empirical element. Now further investigation can proceed. So it's not inherently undetectable, it is a part of reality and nature, somehow this person experienced it.
Now either the person is full of shit about their experience, or wrong that what they claim to have experienced is supernatural. If I'm wrong then explain cuz I'm stuck here.
Even made-up concepts can be genuine concepts. I don't think it is true to say that the term supernatural means "nothing...nothing at all".
Perhaps you could clarrify.
If an experience is claimed to be supernatural yet experienced in reality, on earth, in nature, by a sentient being, how can it also be considered supernatural? This doesn't make sense.
By "nothing at all," I mean the word 'supernatural' itself means nothing at all.
Jeez - I spent the entire ID thread fighting atheists about there being a distinction between ID and creationism and now I am defending the meaningfulness of the term "supernatural" against you. If I am not careful I am going to have to revoke my arch-atheist status!
I'm sure something will motivate you back to the dark side.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 01-27-2010 1:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-28-2010 1:17 PM onifre has replied
 Message 35 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2010 2:11 PM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 230 (544798)
01-28-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by onifre
01-28-2010 12:59 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
By "nothing at all," I mean the word 'supernatural' itself means nothing at all.
I understand your position in regards to reality, but what about in fictional worlds? Like Harry Potter's magical abilities... Can't supernatural mean something in regards to those?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by onifre, posted 01-28-2010 12:59 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2010 2:14 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 38 by onifre, posted 01-28-2010 4:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 35 of 230 (544812)
01-28-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by onifre
01-28-2010 12:59 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
For this to be the case, at some point, there has to be some level of empirical detection - I don't see how we get around that?
Absolutely. Oh dude don't get me started!! That was the entire point of Immaterial "Evidence"
A thread that I hoped both you and RAZ would take part in but which neither of you chose to do.
Now either the person is full of shit about their experience, or wrong that what they claim to have experienced is supernatural. If I'm wrong then explain cuz I'm stuck here.
Beyond phraseology I could not agree more.
Even made-up concepts can be genuine concepts. I don't think it is true to say that the term supernatural means "nothing...nothing at all".
Perhaps you could clarrify.
OK. Do you rememeber when you said that you weren't atheistic about RAZD's god because it existed only in his mind and I agreed with you? (I think we have since established that RAZ doesn't accept that his god is all in his mind but that is irrelevant to this point)
Oni writes:
I am not an atheist against RAZD's concept of God, because RAZD's concept of God makes no claims about reality; his concept exists solely in his mind. Message 43
Now if someone has a concept of god that they claim exists nowhere but inside their own head I don't think we can say that the concept itself does not exist. To that person it does. Likewise with any wholly internal concept of the supernatural. Spirits which provide comfort and meaning. Gods that provide higher purpose. I think these concepts can exist entirely internally to the mind and even have profound effects on peoples mental state.
I just don't think they exist in any reality that could be called objective or shared.
Thus I don't think that it is right to say that the term supernatural means "nothing...nothing at all".
If an experience is claimed to be supernatural yet experienced in reality, on earth, in nature, by a sentient being, how can it also be considered supernatural? This doesn't make sense.
Yeah I agree. It is utterly contradictory. That was my entire point to RAZ in that "Is My Hypothesis Valid" thread and the Immaterial "Evidence" thread that followed it.
But can a concept have meaning internally to ones mind without claiming to be "real" in the objective external sense? Is there a concept of the supernatural that is internal only?
By "nothing at all," I mean the word 'supernatural' itself means nothing at all.
Does a concept have to exist in reality to exist as a concept?
I think the fact that we all have a vague idea of what we mean by supernatural suggests that we all have an internal concept of what such a thing could be. A concept that we all share to some degree. Even if it is purely fictional. I mean Bilbo Baggins exists as a shared concept surely? Even if he isn't real?
Is infinity a concept? Is it "real" in the sense of physically existing in shared external objective reality? Can we define supernatural as a concept without it physically existing in shared external objective reality?
I'm sure something will motivate you back to the dark side.
The force is strong in you Onifre.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by onifre, posted 01-28-2010 12:59 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by onifre, posted 01-28-2010 5:10 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 36 of 230 (544813)
01-28-2010 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
01-28-2010 1:17 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
I understand your position in regards to reality, but what about in fictional worlds? Like Harry Potter's magical abilities... Can't supernatural mean something in regards to those?
It seems great minds think alike.

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 230 (544823)
01-28-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by slevesque
01-28-2010 3:41 AM


But I can be reasonably sure that when a dude comes along and says I am Yahweh's son and starts doing miracles and then dying and resurection, that if I really do think all this really happened I would have to have a strong reason to think something else then Yahweh is responsible for all of this.
Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by slevesque, posted 01-28-2010 3:41 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by slevesque, posted 01-28-2010 9:01 PM Larni has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 38 of 230 (544832)
01-28-2010 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
01-28-2010 1:17 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
I understand your position in regards to reality, but what about in fictional worlds? Like Harry Potter's magical abilities... Can't supernatural mean something in regards to those?
Ummm, I guess. I have no idea. I would regard it as a story, turned into a movie, with special effects. Where would the supernatural part come in? Maybe I'm not following.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-28-2010 1:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-28-2010 4:43 PM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 230 (544836)
01-28-2010 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by onifre
01-28-2010 4:40 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
I understand your position in regards to reality, but what about in fictional worlds? Like Harry Potter's magical abilities... Can't supernatural mean something in regards to those?
Ummm, I guess. I have no idea. I would regard it as a story, turned into a movie, with special effects. Where would the supernatural part come in? Maybe I'm not following.
That Harry's magical abilities are supernatural and that the word has a meaning there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by onifre, posted 01-28-2010 4:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 01-28-2010 5:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 43 by Iblis, posted 01-28-2010 6:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 40 of 230 (544841)
01-28-2010 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Straggler
01-28-2010 2:11 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
Now if someone has a concept of god that they claim exists nowhere but inside their own head I don't think we can say that the concept itself does not exist.
Well, sure, we can agree that the person has a concept, but a concept of what is where it falls apart. The person claims it's god. Ok. How do they know?
So I wouldn't say the concept doesn't exist. I agree that it does. A concept of "something" exists, in whatever state concepts occur neurologically.
I just don't think they exist in any reality that could be called objective or shared.
Hmm, I believe, and we can debate this if you like, that objective reality and subjective reality are the same thing. They exist within the same parameters and restricted by the same things.
To say that something exists subjectively but not objetively is contradictory. If you produce a concept, neurologically, it exists in objective reality. That science isn't technologically there yet to be able to read your mind is another thing.
What the person who had the experience can't do is explain to you the emotional aspect the concept produced internally within them. They can't translate this to you using meer words. But even with emotions we know that they are simply chemical reactions, so it's still something we can objectively detect.
But can a concept have meaning internally to ones mind without claiming to be "real" in the objective external sense? Is there a concept of the supernatural that is internal only?
Concepts of things that humans have claimed to be supernatural (with no evidence mind you) like god/s, spirits, ghosts, etc. are just words describing fictional things. And I mean fictional in the literary sense, since both of us can agree that these things don't actually exist.
But can it have meaning? Absolutely. And it should. Humans created it based off their emotions; it's no wonder other humans can build an emotional attatchment as well.
Does a concept have to exist in reality to exist as a concept?
No. I love fiction. It exists in many areas of human culture, like in books and stories. I think it has value there (entertainment) and shows how creative we are as a species.
I think the fact that we all have a vague idea of what we mean by supernatural suggests that we all have an internal concept of what such a thing could be. A concept that we all share to some degree. Even if it is purely fictional. I mean Bilbo Baggins exists as a shared concept surely? Even if he isn't real?
In that sense, yes of course.
Can we define supernatural as a concept without it physically existing in shared external objective reality?
Again, though, even concepts exist in reality. Unless you're going to take a dualistic view of reality where the mind is seperate from the brain? I believe in the past you've argued otherwise, not sure.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Straggler, posted 01-28-2010 2:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 41 of 230 (544842)
01-28-2010 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
01-28-2010 4:43 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
That Harry's magical abilities are supernatural and that the word has a meaning there.
Oh yeah, sure. Of course. In that sense, what Straggler called a "vague sense of the word," sure.
Don't get me wrong, I know what the definition of the word is in a fictional sense. I wasn't disputing that.
- oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-28-2010 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 230 (544851)
01-28-2010 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by onifre
01-28-2010 5:13 PM


Re: What is Supernatural?
Don't get me wrong, I know what the definition of the word is in a fictional sense. I wasn't disputing that.
Oh
It was this line:
quote:
By "nothing at all," I mean the word 'supernatural' itself means nothing at all.
That had me getting you wrong. Carry on.

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 43 of 230 (544852)
01-28-2010 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
01-28-2010 4:43 PM


Muggle Alert
Nope. In Harry Potter's world, wizardry is genetic, demonstrably recessive, and subject to specific laws of nature studied by a well-developed academic community. The only thing spooky about it is that it is a well-kept secret, intentionally confused with folklore and urban legend that society in general is trained to disbelieve. When someone gets inside information about it in an unauthorized fashion, they are isolated and brainwashed by officials deputed for that purpose.
In short, it is no more "supernatural" than WMD technology or Stealth brand UFOs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-28-2010 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-28-2010 7:16 PM Iblis has not replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 230 (544856)
01-28-2010 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Iblis
01-28-2010 6:07 PM


Re: Muggle Alert
Nope. In Harry Potter's world, wizardry is genetic, demonstrably recessive, and subject to specific laws of nature studied by a well-developed academic community. The only thing spooky about it is that it is a well-kept secret, intentionally confused with folklore and urban legend that society in general is trained to disbelieve. When someone gets inside information about it in an unauthorized fashion, they are isolated and brainwashed by officials deputed for that purpose.
In short, it is no more "supernatural" than WMD technology or Stealth brand UFOs.
Right after I typed that I thought, 'maybe its not in Potter-world - I dunno- Oh well', and I just KNEW some fan would jump on it if it wasn't.
But I'm perfectly happy with myself in not knowing anything about Harry Potter.
It was a bad example. I figured Oni didn't give a fuck either way. I picked it as a slow pitch for him to take a swing at with a joke. Frickin' Harry Potter!?....C'mon!

This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 45 of 230 (544860)
01-28-2010 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Meldinoor
01-28-2010 4:03 AM


Re: Supernature and Nature, where to draw the line?
The difference between supernatural and natural will be a supernatural occurence will contradict a known law of nature.
Of course, you point out that we don't know all the laws of nature and this could make it all tricky. But we know one thing about the laws of nature that we haven't discovered yet; they won't contradict a known law. If they are related to another law, they will simply define it better. The discovery of a law will never make a previous law ''dissappear''.
And so if I drop an apple a billion times in the same conditions, and it always falls to the ground, but one time it happens to start floating in the air and hits me in the back of the head, I can be pretty sure that it is supernatural because it defied the law of gravity even if the conditions didn't change.
And of course, this is all only a definition in a philosophical sense. In a practical sense we are faillible humans, and we may take as supernatural something that is simply an undiscovered law etc. But that we as humans can and will make mistakes about it all cannot be a reason to stop us from defining the supernatural as I think it should be defined, ie outside of nature, our universe and it's laws.

This message is a reply to:
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