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Author Topic:   What is Supernatural?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 59 of 230 (544949)
01-29-2010 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by onifre
01-29-2010 3:06 PM


Re: Devils Advocate
Hi Oni,
Onifre writes:
Here's something I always found rather odd: It is claimed that the afterlife is immaterial, unlike this reality which is made of atoms, elements, etc. Yet it is also claimed that there is a lake of "fire." Which seems rather contradictory: (a) it is immaterial, yet (b) it contains oxygen and atoms, heat, etc....?
I don't know who made those claims but the Bible sure does not make them.
The Bible teaches there will be a physical material heavens and a physical material earth, and a physical material lake of fire.
Mankind will have a physical body that can not be destroyed that will be inhabited by their present mind (consciousness).
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by onifre, posted 01-29-2010 3:06 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by onifre, posted 01-30-2010 3:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 61 of 230 (544952)
01-29-2010 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by cavediver
01-29-2010 3:17 PM


Re: What is There?
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
There is no "after". Then what is there?
There is eternity just as there has always been.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2010 3:17 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by onifre, posted 01-30-2010 4:00 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 230 (545355)
02-03-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by MatterWave
02-03-2010 5:03 AM


Re: Existence
Hi MW,
MatterWave writes:
So my point remains - existence can be either natural or supernatural, depending if a god is required for anything to exist. Going beyond this is personal beliefs that require making stuff up. So why the leap of faith?
Existence is.
Whatever that existence is everything that exists today came from that existence.
Creationist claim that existence was God and He created everything that exists today.
Evolutionist claim that existence is what created the universe and created the first life form. The first life form then evolved into all living life forms that exist today as well as all the extinct life forms.
If existence did not exist then nothing could exist today unless it began to exist. If it began to exist it had to begin to exist from non existence.
Is it possible for non existence to begin to exist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by MatterWave, posted 02-03-2010 5:03 AM MatterWave has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 02-03-2010 12:04 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 161 of 230 (545503)
02-03-2010 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Taq
02-03-2010 12:04 PM


Re: Existence
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
No they don't. Evolutionists claim that life changes over time through the mechanisms of mutation, selection, and speciation. That's it. Nowhere in evolution does it describe how the universe came about nor how the first life came about.
I think you are confusing Evolutionist with the ToE.
I have asked where the universe came from?
Several Evolutionist on this site have told me, the universe just is.
That is existence.
That existence expanded into everything in the universe.
We don't know how life began to exist but it did.
Then it evolved into all the life forms we see today and the extinct ones.
So everything you see today and all the things that ceased to exist came from the first existence.
Is that existence infinite?
OR
Did that existence begin to exist?
If it began to exist what is the mechanism by which it began to exist?
Taq writes:
I don't know. Is it?
There are a lot of peope a lot smarter than I am that says no.
I agree with them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Taq, posted 02-03-2010 12:04 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by lyx2no, posted 02-03-2010 11:16 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 169 by Taq, posted 02-04-2010 10:41 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 163 of 230 (545508)
02-03-2010 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by bluegenes
02-03-2010 5:05 PM


Re: Requirements for existence.
Hi bluegenes,
bluejgees writes:
Nothing can be a prerequisite for existence itself.
Existence is a fact. The universe and life is here.
Therefore:
Existence has to be infinite.
OR
Existence had to begin to exist.
One of those are required (prerequisite) for existence, to exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by bluegenes, posted 02-03-2010 5:05 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 164 of 230 (545512)
02-04-2010 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by lyx2no
02-03-2010 11:16 PM


Re: Existence
Hi lyx2no,
lux2no writes:
If you're not saying that the "Evolutionist" isn't relying on the ToE to inform his opinion on universal origins or abiogenesis why did you bring it up?
My statement was that Several Evolutionist on this site have told me, the universe just is.
Taq then told me what the ToE says as if that was the only thing Evolutionist ever talke about..
cavediver made the following statement in answer to the question where the universe appeared from?
cavediver writes:
It didn't 'appear' from anywhere. It just is.
Found here Message 341.
There are others that made the statement "it just is".
If it just is that means it is already in existence.
My question is then, is existence infinite?
OR
Did existence begin to exist?
If it began to exist, did it begin to exist from non existence?
Then what was the mechanism that caused it to begin to exist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by lyx2no, posted 02-03-2010 11:16 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 175 of 230 (545586)
02-04-2010 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Taq
02-04-2010 10:41 AM


Re: Existence
Hi Taq,
I have 6 posts in this thread prior to this one.
Which of those posts did I say evolution taught that the universe just is?
You did tell me in Message 13
Taq writes:
No they don't. Evolutionists claim that life changes over time through the mechanisms of mutation, selection, and speciation. That's it. Nowhere in evolution does it describe how the universe came about nor how the first life came about.
I responded to you in Message 161
ICANT writes:
I think you are confusing Evolutionist with the ToE.
You responded in the message I am responding to with:
Taq writes:
I think you are confusing Evolutionists with Abiogenesists, Big Bangists, and Stringists.
I have no idea why you want to bring evolution into the discussion of what is natural and what is Supernatural.
I have not introduced the subject and will not respond to any further mention of it.
I did refer to Evolutionist on this site that had told me the universe just is.
FYI cavediver, Rahvin, and Straggler all have made that statement to me.
Which brings me back to the subject of Existence.
Existence is either infinite.
OR
Existence began to exist.
If existence began to exist it had to begin from non existence.
Can existence begin to exist?
You answered "I don't know".
Taq writes:
There are a lot of peope a lot smarter than I am that says no.
People say a lot of things. What I am interested in is the evidence which supports their claims. What is that evidence?
Do you believe something can come from nothing?
It is absurd to believe that existence can begin to exist from non existence.
Why do you think there is a search for the Theory of Everything?
Why do you think Turok/Hawking invented the instanton?
The problem with the instanton where did it begin to exist? A vacume would be required which is a volume of space. Big problem space is a part of the universe and does not exist outside of the universe.
Along comes string theory with two branes producing the universe. Problem where did they exist? Back to the vacume so same problem as the instanton.
Existence is required for the universe to begin to exist by any scientific hypothesis proposed.
Since that exstence has to be external to the universe it can not be natural.
Therefore that existence would be classified as non natural or could be called supernatural. Your choice.
The evidence we have for that existence = The universe exists, we and all life forms exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Taq, posted 02-04-2010 10:41 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 02-04-2010 12:37 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 181 by onifre, posted 02-04-2010 5:29 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 177 of 230 (545591)
02-04-2010 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Taq
02-04-2010 12:37 PM


Re: Existence
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
Why can't it be natural?
Thunderclouds are necessary for the existence of lightning, so does that mean that thunderclouds are not natural?
Thunderclouds are part of the universe therefore natural.
Something had to exist for the universe to begin to exist.
According to the hypothesis there had to be a vacuum for the branes or for the instanton. That vacuum had to exist in existence.
Do you have or know of a hypothesis that would not require something to exist for the uiniverse to begin to exist?
If it has to be external to and in which the universe exists, how could it be natural?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 02-04-2010 12:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Taq, posted 02-04-2010 4:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 193 of 230 (545723)
02-05-2010 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Taq
02-04-2010 4:26 PM


Re: Existence
Hi Taq,
Taq writes:
The lightning bolt can not exist without the thundercloud.
The lightning bolt is a bunch of negatve electrons and positive positrons getting together and doing their thing.
Are you saying positive positrons and negative electrons which are natural can not exist without the thundercloud?
Taq writes:
Why couldn't it be natural? Are branes supernatural?
Branes can not be a part of the universe if the universe was created by the collision of two of them.
They had to exist before the universe began to exist.
Therefore they are outside of the universe we live in which is a place we have no knowledge about.
They would be supernatural according to what you said. In Message 89
Taq writes:
Where is the supernatural? Just beyond the horizon of our knowledge.
But personaly I don't believe anything is supernatural.
I guess I am done here since I don't think anything supernatural really exists.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Taq, posted 02-04-2010 4:26 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by onifre, posted 02-05-2010 4:18 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 196 by lyx2no, posted 02-05-2010 4:43 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 213 by Taq, posted 02-09-2010 12:41 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 199 of 230 (545848)
02-05-2010 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by onifre
02-05-2010 4:18 PM


Re: Existence
Hi oni,
Is there any knowledge past T=0 where General Relativity breaks down and can not say anything as the math does not make sense?
If not there is no evidence for anything past T=0. It is all Metaphysics.
onifre writes:
Branes can not be a part of the universe if the universe was created by the collision of two of them.
Provide evidence to support this assertion........
Why do I need to provide evidence for an "IF" statement?
Are you so dense or educated that you can not understand if I create something I have to exist before I can create it?
onifre writes:
They had to exist before the universe began to exist.
Provide evidence to support this assertion........
This is still part of the "IF" statement.
IF they created the universe by collision they had to exist prior to the universe beginning to exist.
Are you so dense or educated that you can not understand that for the branes to create the universe they had to exist prior to the universe?
onifre writes:
Therefore they are outside of the universe we live in which is a place we have no knowledge about.
Provide evidence to support this assertion........
This is still part of the "IF" statement.
If they created the universe they are outside of the universe.
If they are outside of the universe then they are outside of our knowledge. You have told me yourself there is nothing outside of the universe.
Now if the two braned "BECAME" the universe that is another story which I did not coment on.
onifre writes:
You give us nonsense once again, ICANT.
I can't help it if you are so educated that you can not understand plain English.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by onifre, posted 02-05-2010 4:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-05-2010 8:26 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 207 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-07-2010 2:39 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 209 by onifre, posted 02-08-2010 5:37 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 202 of 230 (545853)
02-05-2010 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by lyx2no
02-05-2010 4:43 PM


Re:Annihilation
Hi lyx2no,
Why don't you start a thread and explain to me how negatve electrons in the cloud and positive positrons under the cloud and on the ground does not generate the lightning bolt.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by lyx2no, posted 02-05-2010 4:43 PM lyx2no has seen this message but not replied

  
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