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Author Topic:   Irrefutable departure
iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 31 of 48 (545361)
02-03-2010 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Nuggin
02-03-2010 11:00 AM


Nuggin writes:

There is a particular kind of arrogance that I only ever seem to find in Christians who are so self righteous that they are _sure_ they are correct.

Spoken like a man who's sure they're not. Or sure they can't know what they say they know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Nuggin, posted 02-03-2010 11:00 AM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Nuggin, posted 02-03-2010 12:55 PM iano has responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 32 of 48 (545363)
02-03-2010 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by iano
02-03-2010 12:33 PM


Spoken like a man who's sure they're not. Or sure they can't know what they say they know.

I do know this. No Christian has ever been able to adequately answer my questions about historical duplication of Jesus "facts".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 12:33 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 2:20 PM Nuggin has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 33 of 48 (545368)
02-03-2010 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by iano
02-03-2010 12:23 PM


Round 2
iano writes:

I'd see it as the one priority consisting of two parts. Letting your light shine (being good & nice) as part of the mechanism of recruitment. That doesn't require a choosing between the two componants of the priority.

Your wording is leading me to believe that what I mean by "being good and nice" isn't the same as what you mean by "being good and nice". Likewise, I don't think we're thinking of the same thing by the word "recruitment" either.

I'll try again to ask my question:

What's more important... helping other people, or making sure they've heard of Jesus Christ?

Here's a scenario to help describe my question:

You are in the centre of a street. You learn of two people, one in a building on the North side, the other in a building on the South side.

Person in North building - Is very adept at helping others yet does not know of any person named Jesus Christ.

Person in South building - Has in-depth knowledge of Jesus Christ. But doesn't help other people.

Who do you go and talk to first?

Going to see the North building fellow first would imply that knowledge of Jesus is more important.
Going to see the South building fellow first would imply that helping others is more important.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 12:23 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 2:14 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by Nuggin, posted 02-03-2010 2:39 PM Stile has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 48 (545383)
02-03-2010 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Stile
02-03-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Round 2
There's still a little confusion in my mind about the thrust of your question (although I'll take a stab at what I think you're asking). Consider how the first question is to be read (with my clarifiying addition in brackets);

Question 1:

What's more important... (presumably iano?) helping other people, or (presumably iano?) making sure they've heard of Jesus Christ?

What I do (helping others vs. informing them about Christ) is the subject of importance.

-

Question version 2:

Stile writes:

Who do you go and talk to first?

Going to see the North building fellow first would imply that knowledge of Jesus is more important.

Going to see the South building fellow first would imply that helping others is more important.

In this instance, the focus of importance has to do with the position of the person in the building - what they do vs. what they know. If it's the case I've guessed wrong in plumping for answering version 2 of the question next then perhaps you'd let me know?

-

Consider the North building occupant. Assuming he is lost, he needs to know that his works are of no effect in terms of his salvation and that salvation comes through reliance on God's provision for him via Jesus Christ. I must certainly inform him.

The South building occupant: has in depth knowledge of Jesus Christ but might not be relying on Jesus Christ for his salvation. Given that there are two options I can think of, you might clarify?

a) His knowledge extends to his knowing he is reliant on Christ for his salvation. In which case he is currently saved and the North building occupant is the one I must attend to. (I could presume to encourage this slack Southerly occupant into doing the good demanded of him by his (and my) master, but that's a secondary matter to the main issue of importance)

b) His knowledge is head knowledge - the kind of knowledge EvC member Brian has, for instance. In which case he is as lost as the man doing all these good deeds in the other building. In which case I might as well toss a coin regarding which building to approach first.

I might add that "knowing of Jesus Christ and him crucified" isn't really the fulcrum of salvation. My position would be that people believe God and as a result of that, are translated into the saved state. This whether in Old Testament times (before they could have heard of Christ) or in/post New Testament times (when they might yet not have heard of Christ). The person thus saved will believe on Christ as their saviour - if subsequently informed about him. But that belief is consequential to their having been saved by believing God. It's not causal in their salvation.

Which is why I said of the Northerly occupant; "assuming he is lost". Despite his never having heard of Christ prior to my arrival, he could yet be a saved person. Meaning his good works are the result of his being occupied and moved by the Holy Spirit.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Stile, posted 02-03-2010 1:07 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 35 of 48 (545384)
02-03-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Nuggin
02-03-2010 12:55 PM


So the Christian who is so self-righteous so as to be sure he is correct is arrogant. And you who is sure you are correct is ... what precisely?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Nuggin, posted 02-03-2010 12:55 PM Nuggin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Nuggin, posted 02-03-2010 2:35 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 36 of 48 (545387)
02-03-2010 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by iano
02-03-2010 2:20 PM


And you who is sure you are correct is ... what precisely?

I don't want to insult your intelligence but do you know the difference between personal experience and theoretical existence?

They are sure they are correct about A BIG INVISIBLE WIZARD.

I am sure that I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT MET ANYONE WHO CAN ANSWER MY QUESTION.

Can you SERIOUSLY not tell the difference?

Are you suggesting that if you were to say: "I've never been to Siberia" that we should not take that statement as fact because you can not be certain whether or not you have been to Siberia?

How about "I was not alive 1,000,000 years ago"?
How about "I am not a tree"?
How about "I have eaten turkey"?

These are all things which you feel as just as unproven, unverifiable and unknowable as a mystical invisible baby killer who lives in imagination land and has a thing for the Jews?

Really? THAT'S you best argument?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 2:20 PM iano has not yet responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 807 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 37 of 48 (545389)
02-03-2010 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Stile
02-03-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Round 2
I'll try again to ask my question:

What's more important... helping other people, or making sure they've heard of Jesus Christ?

Given that most Christians don't have a clue about "Jesus", clearly "hearing of" Jesus Christ is completely worthless.

I assume you've heard of Hitler. Does that make you a Nazi? Does it make you a bad person? How about Nero? How about Dahlmer? Or Jack the Ripper? How about Darth Vader?

Hearing about someone (be they real or imagined) is utterly unimportant in regards to gauging someone's actions or "goodness"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Stile, posted 02-03-2010 1:07 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 02-03-2010 3:30 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 38 of 48 (545397)
02-03-2010 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Nuggin
02-03-2010 2:39 PM


Re: Round 2
Nuggin writes:

earing about someone (be they real or imagined) is utterly unimportant in regards to gauging someone's actions or "goodness"

Yes, I agree.

I'm simply trying to fight my way through iano's philisophical semantics in order to actually get to something concrete.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Nuggin, posted 02-03-2010 2:39 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 7:51 PM Stile has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8163
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 39 of 48 (545399)
02-03-2010 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by mike the wiz
02-03-2010 9:00 AM


If you calculate 5 x 5 and KNOW it's 25 do you doubt yourself, because people can't see it?

The difference here is that you can demonstrate it. You can take 5 groups, each with 5 apples. Put all of the apples together and count them. You can make the prediction that when the apples are counted there will be 25. If it is not 25 then you are wrong. There are 25 apples. You have just demonstrated, independent of your claim, that 5x5 is 25.

Like any good ol' boy from Missura will tell you, "SHOW ME". That is how it works. Make a risky prediction and then test that prediction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 02-03-2010 9:00 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 40 of 48 (545462)
02-03-2010 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by mike the wiz
02-03-2010 9:00 AM


It's not assuredness, it's that a deduction is the same as getting a maths problem correct, only we are using language, that foggy problem!

I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just relaying what I've heard during my tenure at EvC. I don't know you well enough to judge your character other than what I've seen, and you've always been kind and respectful that I've witnessed.


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by mike the wiz, posted 02-03-2010 9:00 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 02-04-2010 7:36 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 255 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 41 of 48 (545473)
02-03-2010 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Stile
02-03-2010 3:30 PM


Re: Round 2
Nuggin writes:

(h)earing about someone (be they real or imagined) is utterly unimportant in regards to gauging someone's actions or "goodness"

Stile writes:

Yes, I agree. I'm simply trying to fight my way through iano's philisophical semantics in order to actually get to something concrete.

Given that I haven't the slightest clue what Nuggin is trying to say in this sentence - allied to the fact that you clearly (apparently) do, makes me think it's not so much iano's philosophical semantics as completely crossed wires. My bad in all probability.

By all (and any!) means... restate your position

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 02-03-2010 3:30 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Stile, posted 02-04-2010 7:14 AM iano has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5858
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 42 of 48 (545474)
02-03-2010 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by iano
02-03-2010 9:21 AM


Re: See you later
Could very well be. If Taz focussed on being a good person, I mean really, really focussed.. then there'd be a decent chance that he'd realise that he can't actually be a good person.

Which, I think, is what the "real Christ" set out to teach both in word and in (by comparison with his) deed

The whole salvation thing is very circular and certainly by appearances looks like a giant Ponzi scheme.

He imparts certain natural predilections in the form of instincts and tells you will go to hell if you act upon those God-given impulses. Then he offers a way out of hell which is to accept his sacrifice. But you're still left with the desire to sin, which he gave to you, whether you accept or deny the sacrifice.

So, what's the point?

Why even create the possibility of sin, or even the material world if the temporal world ultimately means nothing?

What on earth is the whole point?


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 9:21 AM iano has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3863
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 43 of 48 (545541)
02-04-2010 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by iano
02-03-2010 7:51 PM


Let's take this outside
Actually, your latest post seems to have cleared things up quite a bit. I was out of time yesterday, though.

But this doesn't seem like the best place for such a discussion, I'm going to propose a new topic and link to it from here.

This spot right here!!

Message 1
^^_____________________^^

Any minute now...

Edited by Stile, : Just filling the hole.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by iano, posted 02-03-2010 7:51 PM iano has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4662
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 44 of 48 (545545)
02-04-2010 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
02-03-2010 7:42 PM


Now this post is a 5!(Your post I am responding to, not my one)

You yourself have just shown wisdom, by not jumping to any of the conclusions the other people did. (I don't include Iano, I am grateful for his comments, and think he done a good job in his posts, of explaining things better than I can.)

When I said, "deduction", I didn't mean, "believe and accept Jesus in your heart". Infact, it was nothing to do with being Christian, or Christ.

I know that you also know this.

What I mean is logical deduction.

Here is an example;

God kills somebody for sin. Therefore, God has done evil, therefore God is evil.

Now this is an example of a claim. Now within that claim is a whole host of assumptions, and potentially, fallacies.

Now here's the deduction, which is as simple as 5 x 5;

If you do, "evil", it does not FOLLOW, logically, that you are evil.

For example, there are two people, both of them have something evil happen to them. They are both victims of the electric chair.

An evil thing has come upon them both, CERTAINLY. There is no escaping it. However, one person was being executed legally, and the other person was the victim of a serial killer.

The EFFECTS are the same; evil has come upon them both, but the serial killer is evil, and the legal executioner is not evil.

This is all I meant by, "deduction".

Now, Hyroglyphx, this is how I approach EVERY SUBJECT.

I am certain, as much as I can be, that this is perfectly sound deduction, whether "God" is involved or not.

example;

We know that the new government are responsible for tax rates because they are higher than ever, and they have been in power for four years!

This is begging the question, because it doesn't establish that the tax rates were NOT inherited from a previous government, that were actually responsible.

You see, I KNOW, Hyroglyphx, that I am rational, and that my arguments are based on genuine deduction, and TRUST ME - they hate me for it. Look at my rate-scores.

My friend, people will hate you for being wrong, but they will absolutely detest you and even kill you for being RIGHT, against their beliefs.

I claim a wisdom - it doesn't make me the smartest ever, and I have to deal with pride, but the Holy Spirit will help me with that as He has with other sin-problems in my life.

This truly is my final post, I only responded, because you have acted completely honestly, and rationally, and didn't opportunistically jump all over me..

Bye for now. All the best.

EDIT, some more things I have said.

mike the wiz writes:

I condemn rape. (snip)
But Jack the Ripper doesn't. He said that according to his relative morals, I should rape. I told him I don't want to rape therefore he concluded I was immoral.

--

The problem with the natural assumption is that it is the very same thing as the God of the gaps fallacy. That is - it is also fallacious. Think with me for a moment.
Science is great when it comes to analyzing natural processes, repeatable experiment, and so forth. But when it comes to evolution, whether chemical or biological, you MUST include assumptions about questions pertaining to God. Such theories depend on a designer not being involved.

If you say that you can't include God in science - I agree. If you say you can continue to assess "truth" about nature - without God, I don't agree, because logically, you can now only come to a false conclusion, based on premisses which do not involve a Creator.

--

Since bacteria are asexual, reproduce much much faster than humans, then a fossil of 1 billion years would represent the equivalent of a human fossil which is what? 100 billion years old?

The silly examples of flagellum apparently "evolving" certainly seem to not to be impressive, when put next to such a living fossil.

--

But ofcourse - just keep on stating ad nauseum, that there is no evidence for creation whatsoever. This doesn't make you scientific - it makes you dogmatic, because even a very weak theory has evidence.

--

To understand why we (Christian Creationists), reject evolution, the big bang theory, and chemical evolution is because when man attempts to find "truth" and ignores the bible, then if you believe in an inerrant bible, as we do, then logically it follows that certain theories will be mutually exclusive to that belief.
Therefore in response to special pleading, we have to show that there is a reason for our rejection, which is exclusive, which then removes the accusation of a double standard.

What is important is that we don't reject any facts. for example, I do not reject effects of gravity, but more precisely, I do not reject anything which exists in God's universe,

An acceptance of oxygen will not negate an inerrant bible. But evolution clearly is a theory which makes it follow that an inerrant bible must certainly be false.

Therefore, even though Darwin doesn't specifically state that we can not have bible belief, nor any evolutionary scientist, infact, logically one must reject that very thing.

This means that it now becomes a question of priorities. Does a person who believes in the God of the bible, and puts his whole life there for God to take, reject the God that he knows has done so much for him/her?

--

Thou foolish creationist, uneducated, with no pride that swelleth the head, verily I will treat thee with respect if you sacrifice a bull to my omniscience at Lake Darwin. And if thou pretendeth to have the useage of thine brain for even a moment, in the delusion that you can actually think like me, then I will smite thee asunder and leave thee in the road-side, as yet another foolish, teenage, under-educated twurp that you are. So be good little fool, as your arguments have been blown apart since the beginning of time, even though I don't even know what you know, or how you think.

Here is my blog, which is much less contentious, and it's only short "bursts" of writing. http://caeviews.blogspot.com/

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-03-2010 7:42 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 02-04-2010 12:58 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 45 of 48 (545587)
02-04-2010 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by onifre
10-02-2009 12:30 AM


Varied Constituency
onifre writes:

Did you really think he was going to another planet, or was that your shot at being funny? Mike is a cool dude, even though we don't agree with him, he sticks to his point and is alway polite. You, Taz, on the other hand are a complete and total asshole who no one likes. That's the sad part. People would actually care more about a creationist that disagrees with them than you, an obnoxious douche bag with no point to make on any thread ever...

Hi Oni. When you sober up you'll likely remember that a while back Taz abreviated his username from Tazmanian Devil.
Every battery needs a negative post connected for energy.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by onifre, posted 10-02-2009 12:30 AM onifre has not yet responded

  
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