What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?

And let's not forget he only died for a weekend.And where was he during the time of his avatar's death?Large-ing it up in heaven with...himself.I saw a bigger sacrifice in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kharn!

We can explain it: by your god choosing not stop the suffering.He can, but he won't. If he is the Alpha and Omega where all things are possible we must conclude that he has no good reason for not ending the suffering.Lets be clear: he could end it without any negative consequences to anyone.Why worship someone who makes a conscious choice to submit some people to misery?I'll point to my self here: I don't think I've experienced misery but many of my patients have had truly awful, horrific lives.Why does your god hurt them and not me? Why does your god chose to hurt some people but not others when he does not have to hurt people at all.

He knew this would happen in advance and he could have punished Adam and Eve and then forgave them their trespass.But he did not. As well as choosing to engineer the situation so that they would eat the naughty apple (after all he created it and put it within reach of Adam and Eve and created the serpent with a very specific nature). He choose not to forgive them their trespass and to punish them and their children for ever after.Now you say he is waiting for something before he decides to forgive us.You ignore the point that your god can do anything at all; including forgiving Adam and Eve at the time!All of the suffering that anyone has ever had could have been averted if your god was more ofrgiving of Adam and Eve.You absolve your god of all responsibility for the bad things that he has created!Your faith stops you from seeing that you god has the power to make everything right with no negative consequences to anyone; and yet he stands by and watches when he could act.

That's not true. You have said that it will be all right in the end.That's not an answer if you are honest with your self.Sorry to put such a hard line on you Peg, no Christian has even come close to being as up front in this topic as you have with me and I really appreciate that.Edited by Larni, : Clarity

Because, being all powerful he can achieve his aims without suffering. It is within his ability because he is without limits or compunction.Nothing can force Yahweh to make people suffer, can it? Because nothing can force your god to do anything he does not want to we must conclude he makes people suffer because he wants us tooRemember, if Yahweh did not want us to suffer no force in the universe could thart his will.The train of thought is thus:God: No force in the universe can stand against my will. If I will it it will happen exactly as I wish it.Me: What is forcing you to make us suffer?God: Nothing.Where is the flaw in my logic? Then it is your god's will that we suffer! How nice of him.I'm fine with that as long as it is clear that suffering does not need to happen because Yahweh can have his cake and eat it. He could abolish suffering with no negative consequences. First: we only need saving because Yahweh decided we needed saving rather than forgiving Adam and Eve.Second: we should be greatful that he punishes himself as well? How much good is that?What if I beat my wife over the head with a stick and tell her to love me because I'm bludgeoning myself, too: does that make sense? Because that's exactly what you are saying.God could resolve this problem of Adam and Eve disobeying him once without all the years of individual suffering for people if he wanted to because there is no limit to his power.There are no universal conditions that demands we suffer that he cannot overide if he wanted to so we have to conclude that Yahweh wants us to suffer, even when we don't have to. He could achieve the end result of all people being saved if he abolished the need for us to be saved.

So what you and I call evil (to inflict suffering needlessly) is in fact good, by didnt of the fact Yahweh does it? People are only criminal (in this context) beacuse Yahweh decided to punish every one for 2 people'c crime. This is not the case with criminals in human courts: you are punished for what you have done, not what your great, great.....grnadfather did.Edited by Larni, : Last paragraph.

Hi 3DSOC! Welcome to EvC: your diversity will be added to the collective. Yes he is. What act of will by a human causes a baby to be born with phenylketonuria?What about people being killed in storms and tsunamis? You point that it is all down to people making bad choices will eventually lead you back to Adam and if you have read this thread you will see that his has already been dealt with. So Yahweh sits and watches one of his children's free will removed by their parent without lifting a finger?Good old, loving Yahweh.But it's all part of the plan; people can only learn through the heavenly gift of suffering. Even when Yahweh was trying to do humanity a good turn he could only do it using suffering.Does he have no other mechanism to exert his will other than suffering?

I liked it very much indead. A good reboot.What about the points I raised?

The point is that Yahweh decides that these people need to be punished for no good reason!Yahweh can do anything; he can achieve his aims without imposing all the horrible things that you say we should 'choose' to eradicate. This implies that it is our fault we can cure the plagues Yahweh plagues us with. See post 65

Disclaimer!!!!This is not a comment directed to any poster in particular. This is one of the difficulties with discussing evolution: like any area of science there is a need to use precise language. When that language is not read carefully it will be miss-interpreted and erroneous conclusions will be drawn.Edited by Larni, : DetailEdited by Larni, : Quotes

Don't you see? Yahweh could cure all the horrible diseases if he so wished. He could have gone one step further and not invented them at all.When Yahweh invented disease, what was he thinking? Apart from making life shorter and more miserable, what possible reason could he have had?You miss the point here: everything is ultimately your Gods fault: and yes that includes the good bits. So what we have is Yahweh looking down on us and assigning good and bad happenstance to difference people based on some criteria only he is privy to becuase guess what? Innocent people come off just as bad as wicked people in this life. How does that compare with a baby dying at child birth through no fault of it's own or the stirling efforts of the medics trying to save him?Competing is so far off the point (as with the previous poster on this very thread who I'm having almost exactly the same conversation with (have you read all the thread?).Edited by Larni, : More incredulity