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Author Topic:   What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 162 of 174 (545502)
02-03-2010 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Drosophilla
02-02-2010 8:38 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Drosophilla, Larni, DrJones and Dr Adequate,
You all have made several good points and have shed light on this topic.
Allow me to share a passage from Darwin himself about sight;
"...if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real." - 'Origin of Species'
I am not comparing myself in any way to Darwin, I just think he stated what I see as a "problem" better than my posts.
Obviously Darwin looked at the world and saw that lots of creatures had developed sight, so if his theory of evolution is correct, then evolution did, somehow overcome this 'insuperable' challenge. Whether you believe natural selection to be real or not, doesn't make it true or false.
I'm stuck on the "if" part. Has the evidence proven;
1. That these gradations exist?
I understand the adage that "A lack of evidence doesn't meant there is a lack of evidence", so if the current evidence doesn't provide for these gradations, that doesn't mean evidence won't be discovered.
2. That each minor mutation was useful to it possessor?
If these mutations didn't benefit the possessor, then they would not have survived, natural selection wouldn't favor them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Drosophilla, posted 02-02-2010 8:38 AM Drosophilla has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 4:15 AM 3DSOC has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 163 of 174 (545506)
02-03-2010 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Larni
01-31-2010 3:26 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Larni writes:
3DSOC writes:
God isn't doing this,
Yes he is. What act of will by a human causes a baby to be born with phenylketonuria?
What about people being killed in storms and tsunamis? You point that it is all down to people making bad choices will eventually lead you back to Adam and if you have read this thread you will see that his has already been dealt with.
3DOSC writes:
Likewise, if I decide to become a heroine addict and use all my financial resources to feed my addiction instead of feeding my family, it isn't God who is condemning my children, it is I.
So Yahweh sits and watches one of his children's free will removed by their parent without lifting a finger?
Good old, loving Yahweh.
But it's all part of the plan; people can only learn through the heavenly gift of suffering. Even when Yahweh was trying to do humanity a good turn he could only do it using suffering.
Does he have no other mechanism to exert his will other than suffering?
Forgive me, but I don't know what you mean by you've 'dealt' with Adam.
To your point though about illness; Couldn't an act of will by humans discover a cure for phenylketonuria? Couldn't an act of will by a human rescue a family whose parent(s) have become addicted? Couldn't an act of will by humans develop better early warning systems for tsunamis? better evacuation plans for areas about to hit by a hurricane? Imagine what the world would be like if countries spent money on health care and education instead of defense.
If humans actually 'loved their neighbor as themselves', would people still die in natural disasters? Yes. Would people still die from accidents? illness? Yes.
Now before you think I'm painting a 'isn't life just rosey!' picture of life, suffering sucks. Losing a loved one because of a drunk driver sucks. Watching your little daughter suffer from seizures sucks. Finding out that your new born baby boy is deaf sucks.
How a person responds to their situation is bigger than the situation itself.
God's mechanism of choice is actually 'a still, small voice'
Problem is, its easy to let the noise of life drowned it out, so people ignore Him, myself included.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Larni, posted 01-31-2010 3:26 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Larni, posted 02-04-2010 6:59 AM 3DSOC has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 167 of 174 (545706)
02-04-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Larni
02-04-2010 6:59 AM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Larni writes:
The point is that Yahweh decides that these people need to be punished for no good reason!
Yahweh can do anything; he can achieve his aims without imposing all the horrible things that you say we should 'choose' to eradicate. This implies that it is our fault we can cure the plagues Yahweh plagues us with.
There seems to be two separate situations here;
1) people suffering due to accidents/natural disasters/illness
2) people suffering due to decisions made by themselves or by others.
Is this a fair conclusion?
Also, if you're saying that suffering is caused by God, is the opposite of that true as well? Sure there is suffering in the world, there is also a lot of happiness, even "natural happiness" - did you see the full moon several days ago? OMG! amazing! I understand that this specific conversation can be 'quicksand', I'm just trying to understand your whole position on the topic.
You are correct when you say "Yahweh can do anything", do you really want Him to do everything? Me? I like a good challenge, I like to compete, I like to build things with my own hands. I have failed, my Win-Loss is probably 50-50 and I have hit my thumb more than once. I will keep on keepin' on.
Could God create a world where there is no suffering? no pain? no death? Yes He can and that is what Jesus said He was going to go do.
This earth has suffering, this creation has trial, this world has temptation, in this universe WE get to decide whether we will accept God or reject Him. Do you think God suffers when somebody rejects Him?
I do NOT mean to imply that this is some sort of tit-for-tat relationship - ie Yahweh decides that if somebody rejects Him, thereby causing Him to suffer, that He will unleash some natural disaster. I'm saying that God created this world with endless possibilities and consequences.
I think we can agree that if a pharmaceutical company developed a cure for some illness but didn't make it available, that would be 'our' fault. Likewise, if a car company knew about a design defect that had proven to be fatal, but decided it would be cheaper to pay attorneys/lawsuits then to recall a million cars, that too would be 'our' fault.
Edited by 3DSOC, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Larni, posted 02-04-2010 6:59 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Larni, posted 02-09-2010 6:06 AM 3DSOC has not replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 168 of 174 (545707)
02-04-2010 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2010 4:15 AM


Re: Eye Evolution
Dr Adequate writes:
Yes. We can see a whole range of eyes in nature, from the simplest to the most complex. In some cases we can see the whole range within a single phylum --- mollusks are the usual example, but this is also true of jellyfish.
The fossil record proves that these graduations exist?
Concluding that a species which possesses complex eyes must have evolved because some other species has simple eyes does not prove that the graduations exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 4:15 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 10:05 PM 3DSOC has replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 170 of 174 (545761)
02-05-2010 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Dr Adequate
02-04-2010 10:05 PM


Re: Eye Evolution
excerpt from article titled "An early Cambrian craniate-like chordate"
"But Haikouella also has several additional anatomic features: a heart, ventral and dorsal aorta, an anterior branchial arterial, gill filaments, a caudal projection, a neural cord with a relatively large brain, a head with possible lateral eyes, and a ventrally situated buccal cavity with short tentacles."
- Jun-Yuan Chen, Di-Ying Huang, & Chia-Wei Li
Has the analysis of this fossil record changed?
It is my understanding that the chordate fossil record is relatively poor, hence the "possible lateral eyes". Do you have another example? Does the fossil record of man prove these gradations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2010 10:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-05-2010 9:05 AM 3DSOC has replied
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-05-2010 10:19 PM 3DSOC has not replied

  
3DSOC
Junior Member (Idle past 5190 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 01-24-2010


Message 172 of 174 (545820)
02-05-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
02-05-2010 9:05 AM


Re: Eye Evolution - OFF TOPIC!
Jumped Up Chimpanzee,
I do apologize for taking up so much of this discussion thread with a tangent topic - I will not carry on the evolution discussion here any longer.
As to your original question, as I previously stated, I don't have an answer. Or at least any answer I give would be strictly my opinion and would have very little (if any) fact to support it.
~3DSOC
Edited by 3DSOC, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-05-2010 9:05 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

  
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