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Author Topic:   What was God’s plan behind Creation and why does he need one?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 149 of 174 (545177)
02-02-2010 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by 3DSOC
02-01-2010 5:08 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Species A & B are two fish-like organisms (I was actually thinking more like single celled organisms)
Neither A or B has sight.
In 100 generations, species A will have sight.
In 100 generation, species B will be twice as strong.
At generation 50, species A will not have sight while species B in 50% stronger.
If species A and B are vying for the same food/shelter/territory, wouldn't 'natural selection' favor species B at generation 50?
You're assuming that being strong is a matter of degree, whereas being sighted is an on/off condition.
But the latter assumption is definitely not true. And if it was, then your further assumption that the two species are in direct competition would be unnecessary to your argument --- if it took 100 steps to produce sight, and the first 99 were useless on their own, then natural selection wouldn't favor the first 99 and it wouldn't happen.
But looking at the eyes of living organisms shows that there's a whole range of conditions from mere ability to detect light (which is indeed useful to the organisms that possess it) up to sophisticated eyes such as our own.

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 Message 131 by 3DSOC, posted 02-01-2010 5:08 PM 3DSOC has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 150 of 174 (545178)
02-02-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by 3DSOC
01-31-2010 3:07 PM


Re: God's purpose & why the rules
Species A and B mutate randomly and "natural selection" (curious term that implies something is making a decision)
Do you also suppose that the phrase "gravitational attraction" implies that planets have the hots for each other? That "electrical resistance" implies some sort of armed struggle? That the "laws" of thermodynamics are enforced by the thermodynamics police? That the "mass" of a proton involves a Catholic priest?
Here, let Darwin explain it himself, he coined the term, after all:
Several writers have misapprehended or objected to the term Natural Selection. Some have even imagined that natural selection induces variability, whereas it implies only the preservation of such variations as arise and are beneficial to the being under its conditions of life. No one objects to agriculturists speaking of the potent effects of man's selection; and in this case the individual differences given by nature, which man for some object selects, must of necessity first occur. Others have objected that the term selection implies conscious choice in the animals which become modified; and it has even been urged that, as plants have no volition, natural selection is not applicable to them! In the literal sense of the word, no doubt, natural selection is a false term; but who ever objected to chemists speaking of the elective affinities of the various elements?--and yet an acid cannot strictly be said to elect the base with which it in preference combines. It has been said that I speak of natural selection as an active power or Deity; but who objects to an author speaking of the attraction of gravity as ruling the movements of the planets? Every one knows what is meant and is implied by such metaphorical expressions; and they are almost necessary for brevity. So again it is difficult to avoid personifying the word Nature; but I mean by nature, only the aggregate action and product of many natural laws, and by laws the sequence of events as ascertained by us. With a little familiarity such superficial objections will be forgotten. --- Darwin, Origin of Species (sixth edition).
Wouldn't "natural selection" then always favor Species A? It can out muscle B for food, or it can get to the food faster, or it can survive more variables as to climate.
On the other hand, it can't see. I for one would not allow myself to be blinded if, as a compensation, I would gain the ability to bench-press my own weight.
---
Amongst your other unwarranted assumptions, you seem to be supposing that an species can only evolve one desirable quality at a time. If natural selection favors large size in species B as well as in species A, then what in the world is going to prevent species B from getting bigger?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 152 of 174 (545180)
02-02-2010 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by 3DSOC
02-02-2010 12:33 AM


It seems to me that a species would devote a lot of energy over a multitude of generations to develop organs capable of detecting light -
How would this "expend energy"? It takes energy to possess an organ, but not, strictly speaking, to evolve it.
It's not like evolution happens as a result of effort on the part of the species.
Why aren't we all sharks?!
You know sharks have eyes, right?
---
Your question is a bit like asking an economist why not everyone is a plumber. It pays well, it's always in demand, you're your own boss, it doesn't take years of study ... why doesn't everyone do it?
And the answer would be rather similar.

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 Message 147 by 3DSOC, posted 02-02-2010 12:33 AM 3DSOC has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 153 of 174 (545184)
02-02-2010 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by 3DSOC
02-02-2010 12:33 AM


Sauce For The Shark Is Sauce For The Dogfish
Why aren't we all sharks?!
Could I point out that if this was a puzzle in biology, it would not particularly be a puzzle for evolutionary biology?
After all, if sharks, thanks to their superior size, strength, pointyness of teeth, or whatever, ought to have driven all other species to extinction, then they would have done so whether they were the product of natural processes or whether God made the original set of species by an act of fiat creation.
The fact that the other species are still around is sufficient to show that there are biological niches for them to inhabit even given the existence of sharks.

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 Message 147 by 3DSOC, posted 02-02-2010 12:33 AM 3DSOC has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 164 of 174 (545525)
02-04-2010 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by 3DSOC
02-03-2010 10:37 PM


Eye Evolution
I am not comparing myself in any way to Darwin, I just think he stated what I see as a "problem" better than my posts.
Obviously Darwin looked at the world and saw that lots of creatures had developed sight, so if his theory of evolution is correct, then evolution did, somehow overcome this 'insuperable' challenge.
He didn't say that it was a problem. He says, as you quoted, that "the difficulty [...] can hardly be considered real."
What he says is insuperably difficult is for people to imagine it happening. He was right about that too.
Has the evidence proven;
1. That these gradations exist?
Yes. We can see a whole range of eyes in nature, from the simplest to the most complex. In some cases we can see the whole range within a single phylum --- mollusks are the usual example, but this is also true of jellyfish.
2. That each minor mutation was useful to it possessor?
Nilssen and Pelger (here) have shown that there is a pathway from the simplest eye to the most complex such that each small step is an improvement. To quote their paper:
The model sequence is made such that every part of it, no matter how small, results in an increase of the spatial information the eye can detect.
So such a pathway will be favored by natural selection for so long as the benefits of increased visual acuity outweigh the costs to the organism of producing the eye.
For further information, I suggest this article on eye evolution, a work of such penetrating insight and erudite genius that I can only say ... I wrote it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by 3DSOC, posted 02-03-2010 10:37 PM 3DSOC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by 3DSOC, posted 02-04-2010 9:52 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 169 of 174 (545708)
02-04-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by 3DSOC
02-04-2010 9:52 PM


Re: Eye Evolution
The fossil record proves that these graduations exist?
Darwin --- and I --- were actually talking about gradations found in nature today. They prove the proposition that there are organs of vision, varying in complexity, which are useful to their possessors, and so show in principle that a complex eye could have evolved.
However, since you ask, yes, a progression can be seen in the fossil record, for example in the chordates. Pikaia and Haikouella had eye spots, conodonts and agnathans had primitive eyes (as do living agnathans), and "higher" chordates (e.g. bony fish) have lensed eyes. I guess this is something I should add to the article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by 3DSOC, posted 02-04-2010 9:52 PM 3DSOC has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by 3DSOC, posted 02-05-2010 8:17 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 310 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 173 of 174 (545885)
02-05-2010 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by 3DSOC
02-05-2010 8:17 AM


Re: Eye Evolution
excerpt from article titled "An early Cambrian craniate-like chordate"
"But Haikouella also has several additional anatomic features: a heart, ventral and dorsal aorta, an anterior branchial arterial, gill filaments, a caudal projection, a neural cord with a relatively large brain, a head with possible lateral eyes, and a ventrally situated buccal cavity with short tentacles."
- Jun-Yuan Chen, Di-Ying Huang, & Chia-Wei Li
Has the analysis of this fossil record changed?
I don't quite see your point. I didn't say that any of them had no eyes, but that some of them had primitive eyes.
It is my understanding that the chordate fossil record is relatively poor ...
No. The chordates include all vertebrates. We've got quite a lot of them.
Do you have another example? Does the fossil record of man prove these gradations?
Good grief. Of course not. All mammals have proper lensed eyes. Can you picture an australopithecine with eyespots?
---
Anyway, we are way off-topic, so if you want to learn more about eyes, you'll have to start a new thread. Or there are books, of course ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by 3DSOC, posted 02-05-2010 8:17 AM 3DSOC has not replied

  
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