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Author Topic:   Question on English Language to British Members
InGodITrust
Member (Idle past 1669 days)
Posts: 53
From: Reno, Nevada, USA
Joined: 05-02-2009


Message 61 of 79 (543124)
01-15-2010 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by caffeine
01-15-2010 11:05 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
There was a TV commercial--probably 20 years ago--for a resturaunt that served ribs. The commercial had a jingle with the lyrics "Dem bones, dem bones, dem beef bones."
Even to this day, when I give my dog one of those doggie treats shaped like a bone, I'll tell my wife that I'm going to give the dog one of "dem bones." It's funny for some reason. Well funny to me anyway.
IGIT

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 79 (543127)
01-15-2010 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by InGodITrust
01-15-2010 2:19 PM


had a jingle with the lyrics "Dem bones,

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 63 of 79 (543154)
01-15-2010 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Son Goku
01-09-2010 8:14 PM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
Sure it's a feckin grand day.
Do you really say that?
I guess my vaguely cocknified equivalent would be "Nice day innit" with the questioning intonation implicit.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 79 (543179)
01-15-2010 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Straggler
01-15-2010 6:07 PM


It's Hiberno-English innit!
Straggler writes:
I guess my vaguely cocknified equivalent would be "Nice day innit" with the questioning intonation implicit.
I love "innit", one of my favourite aspects of English speech. A conversation near South Kensington once:
Guy #1: Some bloke got attacked by an Orca!
Guy #2: A what?
Guy #1: An Orca!
Guy #2: A what?
Me: An Orca!
Guy #2: What's an Orca?
Guy #1: (Now pissed off) Well it's a bloomin' whale innit!!
Straggler writes:
Do you really say that?
Yes, although if you think that's bad try the fact that I use "Yeah, no" to mean "Yes". Almost all strange stuff in our speech comes from shoehorning the grammar of Gaeilge into English. It is almost impossible for me to say "have" without saying "with me/you" at some point in the sentence or if somebody asks a question I have to repeat the verb. Example:
Do have change for the bus?
I don't have any change at all with me. (I would be incapable of just answering "no")
If anybody is wondering, since you see it in films all the time, the reason "at all" or "at all, at all" is said by the Irish, is that the Gaeilge expression for "none" literally means "at all"

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 65 of 79 (543437)
01-18-2010 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by caffeine
01-15-2010 11:05 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
My personal gripes are always more with spelling, anyway. It's grammar, not grammer.
Egg splatted all over face!
It's particularly embarrassing as I've just pointed out someone else's spelling mistake on another thread!
I don't think it's right to call this an error, as many of the people who speak like this are perfectly aware of formal grammar. I say 'them ones'; I use 'us' as the first person singular pronoun in the accusative; and I say 'mesen' instead of 'myself', but none of these are mistakes. They're dialect.
I was wondering about this point about dialect. At what point does something become dialect rather than a grammatical error? I suppose as long as people are consistent and unambiguous in their use of a word, the meaning is clear and it can be called dialect. I'm not sure that that many people are aware of the formal grammar though. You only need to see how many people write "they're" when they mean "there" or "their", or vice versa. What do they think the apostrophe in "they're" represents?
Living in Norfolk is a particular treat for hearing dialect. My favourite is the word "shew" meaning "showed". "I shew him how to do it." It's quite funny because I have a friend who uses it all the time and I think he's slightly aware it's not right, as he sometimes does a sort of stutter before saying it, but he's not quite sure of the correct word so he says it anyway.

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 66 of 79 (543438)
01-18-2010 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Son Goku
01-15-2010 9:50 PM


"at all"
Hi Son Goku
If anybody is wondering, since you see it in films all the time, the reason "at all" or "at all, at all" is said by the Irish, is that the Gaeilge expression for "none" literally means "at all"
The phrase "at all" is getting completely out of hand in the UK. I'm not sure what people mean by it. Every time I go to the supermarket, the cashier says, "Do you have a clubcard - at all?"
I've got no idea, at all, what they mean by that. Are they asking if I've got at least a part of a clubcard? Why would they suppose that? What would be their reaction if I said, "I have got a clubcard, but I haven't got one at all."?

"Bring on the wall!" - Dale Winton

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 67 of 79 (543441)
01-18-2010 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-18-2010 4:49 AM


Re: "at all"
The phrase "at all" is getting completely out of hand in the UK.
Yep, totally agree - it reminds of the much older "if by chance" which is almost as nonsensical.
What is bizarre is that if you add "at all" to then end of your question, then there is a much better chance that the person will answer in the positive.
Me: Have you seen any of my gloves?
Wife: No dear, I haven't.
Me: What, none *at all*?
Wife: Ah, well as you have said "at all", then yes, i saw a pair in your sock drawer.

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 68 of 79 (543673)
01-20-2010 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-18-2010 4:36 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
I was wondering about this point about dialect. At what point does something become dialect rather than a grammatical error?
If they're trying to use formal, textbook grammar, it's an error. Otherwise, it's dialect. Well, dialect or your own idiosyncratic form of speech, anyway.
You only need to see how many people write "they're" when they mean "there" or "their", or vice versa. What do they think the apostrophe in "they're" represents?
I've noticed I even do that myself sometimes, though. I don't think it's through any failure to understand the difference (well, it might be in some cases, but I'm pretty sure I know which spelling is which!}. It's just that your conscious brain isn't fully briefed in everything going on while you're typing - especially when half-asleep at work. I think you just subconsciously make a phonetic connection between the sound and one of the spellings without any real awareness of what your fingers are doing.
Lastly - to those complaining about 'at all' - what's the issue? We can't go getting rid of speech patterns simply because they add nothing to the meaning of a sentence. We keep them to give our speech rhythm and style.
"D'you want owt from the shop?' has a different feel to 'D'you want owt from the shop, at all?' It doesn't matter if the meanings are identical.

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 69 of 79 (543695)
01-20-2010 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by caffeine
01-20-2010 7:51 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
Lastly - to those complaining about 'at all' - what's the issue? We can't go getting rid of speech patterns simply because they add nothing to the meaning of a sentence. We keep them to give our speech rhythm and style.
"D'you want owt from the shop?' has a different feel to 'D'you want owt from the shop, at all?' It doesn't matter if the meanings are identical.
I agree with you generally about rhythm and style in speach. I suppose in the example you give above, as well as in my example where the cashiers all say "do you have a clubcard at all" the "at all" softens the question. It's a kind of politeness. Fair point.
However, shouldn't it be "D'you want owt from shop?"?

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 70 of 79 (543722)
01-20-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-20-2010 9:27 AM


Re: Brit Vs American - Written Vs Spoken
However, shouldn't it be "D'you want owt from shop?"?
Depends where you're from. I think I tend to say the 'the' nowadays, as my way of speaking's been all softened by the necessity of making myself comprehensible to foreigners. The way I grew up saying it there was still a residual trace of the word though. Not quite a 't' sound, more like just a sharp stop in the flow of air where 'the' should be. I've always thought of it as a kind of verbal punctuation mark, indicating the abbreviation.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 71 of 79 (543806)
01-20-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by caffeine
01-20-2010 10:44 AM


fyi
Not quite a 't' sound, more like just a sharp stop in the flow of air where 'the' should be. I've always thought of it as a kind of verbal punctuation mark, indicating the abbreviation.
Glottal stop. Or maybe that should be glo'al stop!
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 72 of 79 (545734)
02-05-2010 1:18 AM


"i.e" vs "e.g.," et al.
Since this thread has died down a little, I'm usurping it to discuss common language misuses. Today, I'm featuring Latin abbreviations, which are flagrantly abused by many people.
i.e.
This is an abbreviation for the Latin phrase "id est," which means, "that is." It is used to clarify a previous statement, just as the English phrase, "that is," is used.
e.g.
This is an abbreviation for the Latin phrase, "exemplus gratus" (singular) or "exempli grati" (plural). It means, literally, "a good example" or "good examples." It's used in place of the English phrase, "for example."
Some people cannot keep "i.e." and "e.g." straight. My advice to such people is for them to just use English, even though it takes more keystrokes.
cf.
Not many people know or use this one, but I find it handy sometimes. It's an abbreviation for the Latin word "confer," which means, "compare." It means the writer is comparing something just written to something else, often something that may be more familiar to the reader, or to an external source that makes a statement or argument comparable to the present writer's.
Q.E.D.
Latin for "quod erat demonstrandum," meaning "which was to be demonstrated." This is written at the end of a logical argument, to emphasize that the argument has demonstrated the point that the writer intended to get across. Basically, it's a pedantic way of saying, "the end."

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 73 of 79 (545737)
02-05-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Briterican
01-08-2010 5:20 PM


Briterican writes:
quote:
Which is phonetically closer to the actual pronunciation?
Well, linguistically, the reason why we Americans spell things differently than Brits is because we were deliberately and specifically rebelling against the Brits in our language as well as our government and politics. Let's not forget that it wasn't that far in the past from the Revolution that "standardized" English came into being. Shakespeare was part of that revolution that developed a common spelling in the 1600s. Dictionaries and the like were still somewhat new in the 1700s. So when Webster was developing his, he deliberately changed the spelling to distinguish the American language from the British.
But having spent enough time in the UK, I don't really think there's that much difference between the intellectual variances of the two populations. There's just more Americans so the ones who do speak in a less "cultured" manner are more likely to appear in the public eye.
Having worked in the theatre (note the spelling...I have spent enough time in the UK and reading UK-published books that they've infected my spelling...though the distinction I make is that "theatre" is the craft, "theater" is the building), I find American writers have just as strong a grasp of the language as British writers.
Of course, none of this goes to the original post regarding gender neutral language. I can't say I recall what the trend was.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 74 of 79 (545778)
02-05-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Blue Jay
02-05-2010 1:18 AM


Re: "i.e" vs "e.g.," et al.
i.e.
This is an abbreviation for the Latin phrase "id est," which means, "that is." It is used to clarify a previous statement, just as the English phrase, "that is," is used.
But can't be used to say "the knife that is in the drawer." ;-)

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Rosemarry
Junior Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 75 of 79 (565582)
06-18-2010 7:58 AM


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Edited by Rosemarry, : No reason given.

Rose....

  
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