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Author Topic:   How did round planets form from the explosion of the Big Bang?
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 96 of 156 (545021)
01-30-2010 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
01-20-2010 1:21 PM


Re: mass has energy
Does mass not contain energy?
In my my limited understanding of physics, mass and energy are properties of matter itself and therefore "mass" cannot "contain energy" as much as temperature can contain density. Energy and mass are interelated as much as all properties of matter are (and probably at the most fundamental level are the same concept but at more macroscopic levels describe matter in different ways) but one does not contain the other.
If by 'mass' you meant 'matter' than that too is a misnomer as energy is a property of matter in as much as all matter has (or more accurately is) some amount of energy (the ability to do work). The question then become what do you mean by "contain energy".
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-20-2010 1:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2010 2:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 98 of 156 (545071)
01-31-2010 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by New Cat's Eye
01-31-2010 2:41 PM


Re: mass has energy
I also think the problem with considering mass to be energy is that matter its self has no capacity to do work its just simply inanimate.
No such animal in physics. Even at absolute zero, there is the effect of quantum fluctuation (vacuum energy).
I don't think matter is just simply inanimate and has no capacity to do work, but I'm not trying to consider mass to be energy
Again I think you are butchering scientific terms here. Mass, energy as well as space and time are intricately linked i.e. two sides of the same coin. Mass is esentially the measure of the inertia (resistance to change in velocity) of an object in spacetime and the same time mass is also a measure of the amount of energy an object contains (mass—energy equivalence: e=mc[squared]).
So by "containing energy", I'm talking about that ability to do work that matter has. What do you think is a better way to phrase it? i.e. how's your Phraseology
See above.
Energy does have mass, but is not matter. Ergo, not all mass is matter.
Wrong, energy does not have mass. Mass is a measurement not a substance as matter is. Mass is a measure, of the amount of inertia (affect that spacetime has), on matter not vice versa.
Energy and mass are interelated as much as all properties of matter are but one does not contain the other.
Very much true. Look it up. I think you are confusing mass with matter.
Of course these are all labels, however to adequately describe the universe we need to use commonly accepted labels first. Therefore it is necessary for us to use the labels commonly accepted by the scientific community.
Just my layman thoughts on the subject. Correct me if I am wrong.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2010 2:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2010 6:55 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 100 of 156 (545084)
01-31-2010 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by New Cat's Eye
01-31-2010 6:55 PM


Re: mass matter has energy
Matter has has an ability to do work, i.e. matter has energy, not mass has energy.
Agreed.
might not be possible, but what word would you suggest for the blank:
Mass _______ energy.
Energy = mass (times a constant- speed of light squared)
Thus energy and mass are intricately linked and fundamentally interchangable. Mass and energy are properties of matter not physical entities themselves. Furthermore, they are two ways of measuring the same thing. Fundamentally, mass=energy.
Hope this makes sense.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2010 6:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 104 of 156 (545318)
02-03-2010 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Sasuke
02-03-2010 5:35 AM


Re: mass has energy
Matter has no momentum unless energy gives it momentum.
Not true. Matter does not exist without momentum through space and/or time (read Hawking's 'A Brief History of Time' or Brian Greene's 'The Fabric of the Cosmos'). Therefore there is no such creature as matter with no momentum. Momentum itself is a derived measure of the amount of energy a system has and no amount of matter or lack thereof in the universe (vacuum energy) has 0 energy. Think of the universe as one big 'spacetime' ocean of frothy quantum particles popping into and out of existence. If you measured the energy level of this sea it would not equal 0 (zero point field does not equal 0).
Therefore there is no such creature as static, unchanging matter with 0 energy. Matter itself is defined by energy.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Sasuke, posted 02-03-2010 5:35 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Sasuke, posted 02-03-2010 5:58 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 106 of 156 (545321)
02-03-2010 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Sasuke
02-03-2010 5:58 AM


Re: mass has energy
this momentum you speak of is gravity and it occured in the moment of the BB. This BB is the initial vibration/force/energy
Momentum is a measure of mass and velocity of an object. The velocity of an object is subject to the four fundamental forces of nature electromagnetism, strong interaction, weak interaction and gravity not just gravity (though very early in the BB these forces fused together before anything like matter existed). Ultimately matter is a byproduct of these forces not independent of them.
The BB is the initial phenomena, of the dimensions of spacetime we exist in, that we know about. We do not know for sure that there were not similar phenomenas like the BB that have or will yet occur.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Sasuke, posted 02-03-2010 5:58 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Sasuke, posted 02-03-2010 6:13 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 108 of 156 (545336)
02-03-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Sasuke
02-03-2010 6:13 AM


Re: mass has energy
matter is inanimate without force.
Matter doesn't exist without these forces. It is these forces themselves that create the matter (quarks, electrons, etc) around us.
If something is moving through space it is initially due to the BB which was a force.
The BB wasn't a force it was a phenomena of spactime. The BB originated our four fundamental forces that are evident in nature today.
Don't confuse matter falling via gravity as initial force.
When did I ever said that 'matter falling via gravity' (whatever that means) is an initial force?!? I think you are confused as what I am saying. Please elaborate.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Sasuke, posted 02-03-2010 6:13 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Sasuke, posted 02-03-2010 1:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 124 of 156 (545745)
02-05-2010 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Sasuke
02-05-2010 5:10 AM


Force is acceleration. Acceleration is momentum. Momentum is potentlial energy. Potential energy is energy.
They are all interrelated properties which describe our universe. They are all not the same. If they were, why would use differnt terminology for them.
Example, A rock falls to earth and crashes.
I am not seeing how your example above proves your premise.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Sasuke, posted 02-05-2010 5:10 AM Sasuke has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 134 of 156 (545963)
02-06-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Sasuke
02-06-2010 6:12 PM


Maybe the real reason why I am not catching on is because abbreviations/varibles are being used. Could you explain it like this... F=M? A? What is M and what is A?
You know Sasuke, it would have only taken you two seconds to google the formula for f=ma (force=mass times acceleration).
I am not trying to discourage you but I think you are relying too much on people on this forum to do your research for you. If you would put as much effort into researching for yourself in the library and the infinite internet (wikipedia is a good start) as asking junior high level science questions on a high end science forum I think you would find the answers you are looking for.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Sasuke, posted 02-06-2010 6:12 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Sasuke, posted 02-06-2010 6:26 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 139 of 156 (545978)
02-06-2010 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Sasuke
02-06-2010 6:26 PM


Sasuke,
Rgr, it is good to be humble. I am a fellow layman myself in the subject. Hope I didn't come off to harsh, just wanted to spur further learning on the subject.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Sasuke, posted 02-06-2010 6:26 PM Sasuke has not replied

  
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