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Author Topic:   What is Supernatural?
Taq
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Posts: 10042
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 176 of 230 (545588)
02-04-2010 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ICANT
02-04-2010 12:28 PM


Re: Existence
I did refer to Evolutionist on this site that had told me the universe just is.
Why refer to someone's position on biological change when discussing the origin of the universe? One does not have anything to do with the other.
Existence is either infinite.
OR
Existence began to exist.
So which is it, and what is the evidence that supports it?
Do you believe something can come from nothing?
I don't have an opinion one way or the other.
It is absurd to believe that existence can begin to exist from non existence.
Why is it absurd?
Why do you think there is a search for the Theory of Everything?
Because we are curious as to how the universe works and how it came to be.
Existence is required for the universe to begin to exist by any scientific hypothesis proposed.
Since that exstence has to be external to the universe it can not be natural.
Why can't it be natural?
Thunderclouds are necessary for the existence of lightning, so does that mean that thunderclouds are not natural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2010 12:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2010 12:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10042
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 179 of 230 (545644)
02-04-2010 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ICANT
02-04-2010 12:56 PM


Re: Existence
Thunderclouds are part of the universe therefore natural.
Thunderclouds are not a part of the lightning bolt. The lightning bolt can not exist without the thundercloud. The lightning bolt is natural. Therefore, the thundercloud can not be natural.
This is your argument in a nut shell.
If it has to be external to and in which the universe exists, how could it be natural?
Why couldn't it be natural? Are branes supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2010 12:56 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2010 12:23 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10042
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 213 of 230 (546232)
02-09-2010 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ICANT
02-05-2010 12:23 AM


Re: Existence
Are you saying positive positrons and negative electrons which are natural can not exist without the thundercloud?
Ignoring the mistaken description of lightning for the moment, this is what you are arguing. You are saying that whatever produces a natural phenomenon has to be supernatural. If lightning is produced by thunderclouds and thunderclouds are outside of lightning then thunderclouds are supernatural. Again, this is the logic of your argument.
Branes can not be a part of the universe if the universe was created by the collision of two of them.
Quite the opposite. Our universe IS the collision of two branes, if the theory is correct.
Therefore they are outside of the universe we live in which is a place we have no knowledge about.
They would be supernatural according to what you said. In Message 89
In that message I argued that, historically, what people described as supernatural was natural phenomenon that they didn't understand.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 193 by ICANT, posted 02-05-2010 12:23 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10042
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 214 of 230 (546233)
02-09-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by MatterWave
02-04-2010 7:37 PM


Re: A pointless exercise
Scientists first muse and make a hypothesis over unsolved questions, then they test the hypothesis. Is this news to you?
What separates the scientist from the philosopher is the second part, the testing of a hypothesis. Is this news to you?
Your statement that scientists aren't philosophical(thinking about the big questions) is completely false.
I never said that scientists were not philosophical. What I said is that testing hypotheses is what makes them scientists in addition to be philosophical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by MatterWave, posted 02-04-2010 7:37 PM MatterWave has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10042
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 226 of 230 (546348)
02-10-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by MatterWave
02-09-2010 7:03 PM


Re: Requirements for existence.
No. I was saying that you or anyone else for that matter, don't understand anything at all when it comes to the deep questions.
That's solipsism. You are saying that we can't believe anything we see, can't understand it, and therefore all answers are equal. Sorry, but that's not a very good way to go about things.
You have zero knowledge, which is very evident by the complete and total lack of evidence to support your assertion that existence is natural and does not require a God.
Burden of Proof fallacy. It is not up to us to falsify your claims. It is up to you to support your claims. If you want to include "God" then you need to provide evidence of "God".
Atheists and creationist share the same non-sensical dogma that you somehow understand the Universe.
That is not what is happening here. You are arguing that we CAN'T understand the Universe and therefore shouldn't try. Science argues that we CAN understand the Universe, and it tries to do so. Those are the positions being argued here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by MatterWave, posted 02-09-2010 7:03 PM MatterWave has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10042
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 227 of 230 (546350)
02-10-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by MatterWave
02-09-2010 8:20 PM


Re: Requirements for existence.
You are arguing that existence is natural and there is no God.
We observe the natural. One point for the natural.
You are arguing that there is something outside of the natural and within this "outside the natural" there is a being called "God". Where is the evidence for any of this? Where are the observations?
It would seem to me that the argument with the least assumptions would be devoid of things for which there is no evidence.
Existence is incomprehensible . . .
That's a solipsism.
You are an experienced debater and you know the answers to the big questions so that you can state with certainty that everything is natural and god does not exist.
The problem here is that your "big questions" have no footing in reality. You might as well assert that science is worthless because it can not answer the big question of how reindeer fly.
You are inventing these questions from thin air. Actually, not even thin air but from nothing. You are inventing realms and entities for which there is no evidence, and then throwing out methodologies because they fail to explain these inventions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by MatterWave, posted 02-09-2010 8:20 PM MatterWave has not replied

  
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