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Author Topic:   Reverse realm and contradictions of bible translation
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 19 of 118 (542652)
01-11-2010 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by FullCircle
11-27-2009 2:23 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
The Books of the Bible that were written in Hebrew are well over 2,000 years old. These books date back to well before the printing press, and it was required that men of the time know the Books of Moses inside and out. These Books were generally taught through oral recitation, as was most knowledge of the times; that is, the knowledge was spoken and repeated. Very few had the ability to read or write.

Here the whole idea falls apart. It doesn't matter how many illiterate people there were. The only question is, did an original copy survive? (Even the phone game ends with the original copy being read aloud.)

It's been suggested that your "point" is the reason for 2 versions of the creation story. A rebuttal to that is perhaps there were 2 documents telling 2 sides to the same story. Adam having written one or both of them. Moving to modern times, there are more original copies of the Scriptures to work off of than any other document in history. Something like 20,000 hand written source copies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by FullCircle, posted 11-27-2009 2:23 AM FullCircle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Brian, posted 01-11-2010 4:10 PM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 21 of 118 (542699)
01-12-2010 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
01-11-2010 4:10 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
there are more original copies of the Scriptures to work off of than any other document in history.

What is an 'original copy' and how does one come to the conclusion that a copy is the 'original copy'?

Excellent question. I misspoke.
We have no original manuscript (MSS}copies. We only have 24,000 extant copies. (The next highest number is the iliad with about 650) The accuracy of the copies compared to each other gives us a measure of how close the copies are likely to be to the missing original. A comparison of all the Extant MSS has turned up only an occasional letter being miss-copied or transposed.

(I emailed one of the researchers for the Dead Sea Scrolls a number of years back and he told me the fragments found were similarly accurate.)

Edited by Sky-Writing, : No reason given.

Edited by Sky-Writing, : No reason given.

Edited by Sky-Writing, : .


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 4:35 AM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 23 of 118 (543400)
01-17-2010 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by greyseal
01-17-2010 4:33 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
The accuracy of the copies compared to each other gives us a measure of how close the copies are likely to be to the missing original.......

I tried to find out more about this with a very quick, very general google search, but I was very unsuccessful. I tried lots of variations on keywords like "original" and "manuscripts" and "quantities" but all of them for many, many pages were all entries which were almost entirely identical to each other saying essentially the same thing (paraphrased).......

So your research skills are poor and all the information you could find is in agreement with me, yet my conclusions are wrong? Uncle. I Give.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 31 of 118 (546352)
02-10-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by greyseal
01-18-2010 2:59 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
I get it. You have to learn to walk in the other guys shoes. You would need to find me conflicting information from a source I trust in order to make a valid point.

Just as if I was trying to discredit your "age for the earth", I would have to use a "Scientific" source to discredit you.

I can't call all scientific literature POISONED.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:52 AM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 32 of 118 (546353)
02-10-2010 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 4:35 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
The link you posted was a discussion regarding a person who questioned
"if we don't have the original, how do we know that the original was copied correctly?"

The answer is: each time a new translation comes out,
that's what they do.
Then we can always check new bible versions against the old ourselves if we have any question on an issue.

Or we can contact the translators to find what documents they used.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 4:35 AM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 1:43 PM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 34 of 118 (546390)
02-10-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 1:43 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Yes? Please follow with the point that is (obviously) not obvious to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 1:43 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 36 of 118 (546398)
02-10-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 1:43 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
I THINK what your trying to get at is:
The author wrote his text with a pen.
We don't have his penned words
or even the same language
and some translations even differ from each other
so our copy has built in error.

So could not possibly be perfect or literal.

It's a valid point.

Your concern can be addressed by doing a scientific test.
Take one passage/paragraph/or page. Give it to two people.

Tell one person to read it literally.
Tell the other to interpret what it means.

Ask a biblical Scholar to judge the results.
It can be a reformed Jew or (most) any kind of Scholar. Somebody who has spent a reasonable about of study on the Bible.
The first person will be in agreement with the scholar more of the time. If you say 51% then my case is weak. I'm (guessing) 98% of the time. So Literal "Interpretation" is the best method for understanding what the passage "really means".

I just went through an example of this yesterday. The non believer was telling me that the passage "a mist came up and watered all the ground" meant that rain fell.

I went to a science website and looked up "Dew". The site used very similar words and ended with " Some parts of the world get more moisture from Dew than from rain. Another example where the non-literalistic reader messes up.

I have my own phrase for it with it's own definition:
Literal Truth
To me, means that God can speak straight to the heart of the reader, no matter which translation they use, what language they use, or what weird or crazy cut up version of the Bible they use.

God can speak his Literal Truth to the reader. But they ONLY get the real meaning if they accept that what they are reading has no errors to worry about. If they are worried about errors they will miss the Truth that's right there.

That's my view on innerancy.

I THINK that's what your getting at. But I'm just guessing.

PS I went through your links to confirm what I had guessed at.
My analysis was correct.
I couldn't read the entire posts because neither writer had any focus on the results of the documented differences.

Line 21: 3rd from last word: Q = "ke-sheniy" prep + ns (scarlet) and M = "ke-sheniym" prep + nmpl (as scarlets).
Line 22: 2nd word: Q = omission of aleph in the spelling of this word.
Line 23: 4th word: Q = addition of prep beth (in) to "chereb" (sword)
Line 25: 3rd word: Q = "hayu" pf 3mpl (they are) and M = "hayah" pf 3ms (it is)

You are suggesting to me that GOD is unable to reveal His Literal Truth because (they are) is not the same as (it is).

I say the point is Bologna.

Edited by Sky-Writing, : PS


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 1:43 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 3:25 PM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 38 of 118 (546404)
02-10-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 3:25 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Well, Why didn't you say so? I could have responded

"Sure, I know that."

Edited by Sky-Writing, : .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 3:25 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 3:38 PM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 40 of 118 (546406)
02-10-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 3:38 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Which argument?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 3:38 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 3:40 PM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 42 of 118 (546410)
02-10-2010 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Well, you'll need to be specific to get an answer.

This message is a reply to:
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 44 of 118 (546436)
02-10-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
I THINK what your trying to get at is:
The author wrote his text with a pen.
We don't have his penned words
or even the same language
and some translations even differ from each other
so our copy has built in error.

So could not possibly be perfect or literal.

It's a valid point.

I suggest multiple versions of the Bible for the parts that
you find confusing to you. It helps to clear up problems.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 3:40 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 6:25 PM Sky-Writing has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 46 of 118 (546458)
02-11-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Sasuke
02-10-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
quote:
Sky,
I don't trust the content of the Bible. I merely agree with a few things. God's existence. Christ as savior. These are by choice cus neither of them can be proven to exist or to have existed.

It's true that if you receive a phone call from somebody, there is no way to prove there is somebody on the other end of the conversation talking to you. But the longer you talk, and the more responses you get, the stronger your belief that there is a person there.
quote:

The reason I believe in them is solely because of revelation and dejavu... Granted both revelation and dejavu can be explained by Science... I just simply choose to be faithful.

I've not experienced either to any extent, and I don't have a good enough imagination to apply them to my belief in God, but OK. Accepted. That's why you believe.
quote:
As I've stated before, The scripture in the Bible is derived from many different authors that span many millennia of time.

40 Plus Authors
Covers 100's of controversial topics
spanning 1,500 years or so
40 plus generations
3 continents
3 languages
quote:

a lot of scripture was probably passed down by word of mouth.


Or (much more likely) it was written by the authors as well as being passed by word of mouth.

quote:
Then eventually it was written down by people that didn't have the entirety of the story just like in the game of phone.

Even in the the phone game the original text is read and everybody has a good laugh.
In order for the grapevine theory to work, the original text must be lost. The people that lived in the time these events took place are not famous for playing telephone with stories. Jesus spoke in Aramaic which is a very lyrical, poetic style of language. When the greek is re translated back to Aramaic it is found to be easy to set into rhymes or patterns. If I start "London bridge is falling down" you likely can pick up where I stopped.

Linguistic researchers have put much of what Jesus said back into similar phrases and theorize that he used this uncommon language just for that reason. And Jesus quoted the old testament with accuracy. And seemingly full knowledge of the OT text we use today.

quote:
This has happened with the Bible.

Easy to prove.
The links you shared don't measure up to the tale that your telling however.
(Telling that you are.)
( Are that you tell.)
(You are that telling)
Now if you tnihk my masasge got list by scrbmaling theses words, srue myabe it did. But there is the other 98% to help you get back on track.

quote:
The message is undoubtedly different than its autographs which were written, most likely, centuries after its origin. Then eventually it was copied in the form of manuscripts which is what we read in our time. However, these manuscripts were hand copied for millenia before they reached our time, plenty of time for change to occur.

That's all good possible theory.

You have 40,000 handwritten manuscripts to prove your point.
Until today, no one has examined the handwritten manuscripts that
we have, and reached the conclusion that the original autographs
were copied incorrectly.

If you have examples of OTHER texts showing up with gross changes, and sloppy interpretation over the same time period....then you may have a case. But at this time, your assertion is baseless.

Then there is the internal congruency. Can you take the personal opinions of 40 authors, over 1,500 years, three continents, and have their opinions agree with each other? That they all agree on one moral code?

OK, now run those 40 authors stories through your "telephone game" for 1000 years and have all their opinions and morals all line up with each other. And details about the same events.

quote:
Things like laws though or regulations these are definitely going to change over time with culture. So all that part of the Bible is for sure just crap,

You can call them crap. I still like the first 5, and I think the last 5 are good enough for all Americans to embrace:

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
nor his xbox, nor his TiVo, nor his little children,

quote:
.. Stuff like end of the world scnenarios seem ludicrus to me. Typically prophecies like seen in revelations are crap. These prophecies are simply to broad to say a phophecy is being fullfilled.. You need something specific. The world is going to turn yellow on 2015. LOL. That is pretty specific.

Those are the kinda prophecies I like to see cus in 2015 we can test it. Anything else is just hogwash superstition.
This is reality, come back to it.....


2015 & Reality in the same breath. All-Righty-Then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Sasuke, posted 02-10-2010 6:25 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:58 AM Sky-Writing has not replied
 Message 52 by Jazzns, posted 02-11-2010 9:57 AM Sky-Writing has not replied
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Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 4470 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 55 of 118 (546542)
02-11-2010 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by greyseal
02-11-2010 3:52 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
My original message was about two things
1) the amount of literary heavy-lifting done by most believers seems to be minimal, and infact all the websites I found did zero checking on their own and instead parroted one person's book.

You should instead, be critical of the amount of effort by non believers who are still in bed, not lifting an eyelid to help you out.

Whilst the book may be correct about the numbers of manuscript copies, whilst I haven't read it, it still doesn't tell me anything about the veracity or accuracy of the manuscripts

It does tell me there are a lot of copies, but it shows no proof about accuracy when compared to these older copies, nor about changes between earlier and later in terms of language, syntax, context or otherwise.
Maybe the actual book has better proof?

It has further citations.
http://www.amazon.com/...estament-Transmission/dp/0198261705
http://openlibrary.org/...M/New_Testament_manuscript_studies
http://goodspeed.lib.uchicago.edu/ms/index.php?doc=1040

I think to pretend that translations change nothing than the language is a big mistake, and I think to pretend that whilst scribes are really, really good at what they do, to pretend that they can't make mistakes or would not make changes for any reason is foolish.

And yet that gets the best insights. It not only allows one to see what is there, but it allows insights into the subtleties of the language and even God's sense of humor. So if your missing God's sense of Humor in your readings.....


2) You still cannot use the bible to prove the bible [according to ] Godels incompleteness theorem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

Yes you can. That is one method to use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible
If 40+ authors, writing over 1000 years,
all agree on matters of ethics and morality,
then all the writings were corrupted by some editor so they would agree,
or you have the Word of God in your hands.

Because you'll be hard pressed to find 2 people alive in your half of the United States
who agree on all matters of ethics and morality.

Edited by Sky-Writing, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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