|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,469 Year: 3,726/9,624 Month: 597/974 Week: 210/276 Day: 50/34 Hour: 1/5 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Junior Member (Idle past 5213 days) Posts: 4 From: Farmington, ME, U.S. Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: How did round planets form from the explosion of the Big Bang? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I also think the problem with considering mass to be energy is that matter its self has no capacity to do work its just simply inanimate. You're wrong. An atomic bomb relies on all that energy that is stored up in the mass of the material. Through the process of fission, an atomic nucleus is split into two smaller ones and releases a shitload of energy that is "in there". And mass does not equal matter. Matter has mass, but not all mass is matter.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And mass does not equal matter. Matter has mass, but not all mass is matter.
All great But your title leaves me a little queasy - energy has mass would be much better.
Does mass not contain energy? Or what would be a better word for the relationship between mass and all the energy required to keep it together as such?
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Subatomic particles(protons, neutrons, electrons) come together to form different types of bonds. These bonds form matter. In these bonds the energy is being used to form these bonds. So therefor the capacity to do work is being used at the moment. Since energy is defined as the "capacity to do work" matter can't be energy because the energy in the atoms of matter at the moment is being used to form these different types of bonds/matter. Break the bond/NOT THE MATTER = Release the energy. Thanks, yes this is how I understand it too. Its quite different from what you posted in Message 86 though. I see the energy of the bonds as being "contained" by the matter, and that's why I said that mass "has" energy.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Actually they are not different although I will admit post 92 is a lot more true than post 86... It looked like were changing from your position that matter has no capacity to do work to matter being able to do work by breaking the bonds. From Message 86:
quote: From Message 92:
quote: But now I see my mistake in that your saying that breaking the bonds and doing work is not the same as the matter doing work. But the matter is the bounded up particles. I think breaking the bonds is the matter doing work. And the bonding is the doing of the work, not the using up of the capacity to do work, I think... maybe. Hey, that's one of the great things about this place, I can just through that out there and be sure that someone will be quick to tell me if I'm wrong
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The question then become what do you mean by "contain energy". Yeah, the wording has become akward. From Message 86, Sasuke:
quote: I don't think matter is just simply inanimate and has no capacity to do work, but I'm not trying to consider mass to be energy I repied:
You're wrong. An atomic bomb relies on all that energy that is stored up in the mass of the material. Through the process of fission, an atomic nucleus is split into two smaller ones and releases a shitload of energy that is "in there". So by "containing energy", I'm talking about that ability to do work that matter has. What do you think is a better way to phrase it? i.e. how's your Phraseology
In my my limited understanding of physics, mass and energy are properties of matter itself and therefore "mass" cannot "contain energy" as much as temperature can contain density. Energy and mass are interelated as much as all properties of matter are (and probably at the most fundamental level are the same concept but at more macroscopic levels describe matter in different ways) but one does not contain the other. In Message 89 I wrote:
quote: Energy does have mass, but is not matter. Ergo, not all mass is matter.
Energy and mass are interelated as much as all properties of matter are but one does not contain the other. Not true.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I also think the problem with considering mass to be energy is that matter its self has no capacity to do work its just simply inanimate.
No such animal in physics. Even at absolute zero, there is the effect of quantum fluctuation (vacuum energy). Well, we agree on the main point I wanted to make. But I'd still like to see other opinions on the side stuffs:
I think you are confusing mass with matter. I do think I was conflating the terms there a bit. I wrote:
quote: Matter has has an ability to do work, i.e. matter has energy, not mass has energy. Although:
mass is also a measure of the amount of energy an object contains With mass being a measure of how much energy an object contains, I could see how the phrase of "mass (too) containing energy" could be arrived at, depending on how you're using 'contain' as you brought up earlier [whether or not its really accurate].
Wrong, energy does not have mass. A cursory glance at the internets shows people claiming both sides. I honestly don't know. I thought it did.
Of course these are all labels, however to adequately describe the universe we need to use commonly accepted labels first. Therefore it is necessary for us to use the labels commonly accepted by the scientific community. Of course. I brought up Phraseology, and I think these complex physics conspets cannot be adequately phrased with simpler words, but I do think its good to have simpler phrases of the concepts, even if they are a little off, so that they can be talked about without the need for a 1000 word paragraph. It might not be possible, but what word would you suggest for the blank: Mass _______ energy. I don't think "is" works, and not really "has" or "contains". Is there some word that can be put in there? What about if we sub matter for mass? Matter ________ energy. ???
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
CS writes: I think breaking the bonds is the matter doing work. I guess it depends on how you perceive "capacity to do work".
I would say destroying a city is a lot of work... (atomic bomb).
However, if matter is inanimate I don't see it having a capacity to do work. Inanimate? A glass of water's molecules are moving all over the place. Its anything but inanimate. What do you mean? Simply not being alive? Contained steam can be used to drive a train and its not animated in the sense of living....
it depends on how you perceive "capacity to do work". When you say that something inanimate cannot do work you seem to be suggesting that because a rock can't mow the lawn then it doesn't have energy... "doing work" is not just manual labor
The way I look at energy is while its stimulating not while it needs to be stimulated. stimulating = capacity, not stimulating = no capacity. That hardly makes sense. The need to be stimulated doesn't mean there's not a capacity to do work. A stick of dynamite can do a whole lot of work but you gotta light it first.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm sorry Sasuke, but it sounds like you're just starting to make stuff up...
A lot of your assertions can be easily refuted with a simple understanding of physics.
Energy is required in order to break the bonds to release more energy. It is not something that is just done inanimately. Gasoline does not burn without fire or some kind of force/energy. This is true for all matter. No, radioactive matter will release energy in the form of radioactive decay without stimulation.
CS writes: Inanimate? A glass of water's molecules are moving all over the place. Due to vibrations that are external to water. Again another case of energy/stimulation. Matter its self is inanimate.
No, due to Brownian Motion, independent of stimulation.
energy is stimulation. Not necessarily.
Energy is momentum. Uhh, no. Just look at the wiki page on energy. Also, a taught spring has a lot of potential energy without any relative momentum.
Matter has no momentum unless energy gives it momentum. Matter always has momentum, it never doesn't have momentum. Again, I think you're just making stuff up. You're in a position that you have to come to erroneous imaginations to maintain, you should just learn a bit and change your position.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Matter is forming or breaking down here. This does not show that matter has a capacity to do work. This shows that energy will form bonds to eventually become matter. "Energy" doesn't form bonds, and its not a thing or stuff. And if you stood next to some radioactive matter, it would do all kinds of work to your body. I don't know what you mean by "breaking down", but 'transforming' would be a better phrase. I don't really see anything correct in the above quote.
CS writes: No, due to Brownian Motion, independent of stimulation. These are atomic particles. You know protons, neutrons and electrons floating around attempting to form bonds or form matter. This is not matter yet.
No, they are molecules and that's matter.
I disagree. An explanation would've been nice.
Potential energy is not energy... This is like a car that is being manufactured by FORD. Its a potential car but it is not a car YET. Swing... and a miss. You're just exposing your misunderstanding of energy and potential energy. Just look it up. Potential energy - Wikipedia
While matter has momentum the force behind its momentum is the energy not the matter its self. Energy is not a force You need to learn more about that too: Force - Wikipedia Really man, you're way wrong on a lot of this stuff and need to do some brushing up before you're going to be making any sense.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
How does the rock held above my head have greater energy content than the rock at my feet since they are both falling through spacetime equally? It has more energy because it can do more work. Stop holding it and it can crush your foot unlike the one that is sitting next to your foot. And they are not "both falling through spacetime equally" even though I don't know what you're referring to by that
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The rocks are both falling toward earth. No. They're both stationary to the Earth. Neither one is falling. One is being held above the ground and one is on the ground. The one being held has more potential energy.
The larger mass. therefor same potential energy for both. No, assume they're the same mass. The one above your head can be used to do work, say drop it to drive a nail, but the one laying on the ground can't do that.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
|
CS writes: "Energy" doesn't form bonds, and its not a thing or stuff. Yes it does. An example would be with covalent bonds, Oh, I read you as saying that one bit of evergy would form a bond with another bit of energy. Covalent bonds are on a much larger scale (i.e. the sharing of valence electrons) and saying that "energy forms them" is a poor way to phrase it.
CS writes: And if you stood next to some radioactive matter, it would do all kinds of work to your body. Point taken.
Are you beginning to see how matter can do work?
CS writes: No, they are molecules and that's matter. I don't see anything in brownian motion that says it's specifically about random motion of molecules.
On the Brownian Motion page you will find a link to 'Random Walk' and under the Applications section you will find the line:
quote: When I was in college we used computers to simulate random walks by having the body rotate a random number of degrees and then follow a straight path for a random distance, then rotate a random number of degrees and then follow a straight path for a random distance over and over again. Take a look at this gif:
Inside a glass of water, the molecules are randomly bouncing around like that. It is not "inanimate".
Actually energy can be a force. Not really. A force is caused by the acceleration of mass. Energy is not some 'thing' that can accelerate and cause a force. In Message 123 you wrote:
quote: Acceleration is not momentum. Momentum is mass X velocity. It is not potential energy, but kinetic.
Acceleration does attribute to kinetic, gravitational, and even electromagnetic energy. A rock falling is a perfect example of how force is in fact a form of energy. I think you're thinking along the lines of energy transfer, whereby potential energy gets transfered into kinetic energy when the rock falls. But a force being a "form of energy" is a poor way to phrase it.
I've realized so much from all this discussion with you, DA, cavediver and Rahvin. What have you learned? Not too much. I learned all this stuff, like, 10 years ago. I'm just trying to explain it to you. I did learn to be careful when discussing both mass and matter to not mix them up in my head while I'm typing. ABE: How old are you? I'm 28. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
|
Tazzhole writes: By the way, make sure you take all the calculus classes. Nothing in modern physics make sense without calculus. Also, having the physics examples makes understanding the calculus easier.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024