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Author Topic:   Reverse realm and contradictions of bible translation
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 29 of 118 (546331)
02-10-2010 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Sky-Writing
01-12-2010 3:45 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky Writing,

it was a long long long long long time ago when I went over all this but trust me there are a lot of issues between manuscripts and translations. FYI: Original manuscripts are identified as "autographs".

p.s. I will repost here later with some more info in relation to the errors between biblical translations and manuscripts.

---------------repost-----------------------

Hey, here is the link to one of the other EVC threads discussing the differences between translations and manuscripts.

FYI: This link is just one of many.

Edited by Sasuke, : link

Edited by Sasuke, : edit - link didnt post first time

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-12-2010 3:45 AM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 12:00 PM Sasuke has responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 30 of 118 (546332)
02-10-2010 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by FullCircle
11-27-2009 2:23 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
FullCircle,

Excellent post.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by FullCircle, posted 11-27-2009 2:23 AM FullCircle has not yet responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 33 of 118 (546379)
02-10-2010 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 12:00 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky-Writing,

I know what it was about but the facts are still the same. Read the thread. The thread talks about the facts of there being differences(many) between biblical translations(also manuscripts) and biblical manuscripts(in original assumed language).

Here are some links from that thread to get you started in the right direction. Follow their lead and see what YOU find. Then come back with a reasonable response. A response that the texts match is not reasonable. The evidence is pointed out in the links below and it is clear that the biblical manuscripts/translations are different from each other.

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&m=257506

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&m=257506

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&m=470113

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&t=8101...

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : clarity

Edited by Sasuke, : links

Edited by Sasuke, : spelling

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 12:00 PM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 2:12 PM Sasuke has responded
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Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 35 of 118 (546395)
02-10-2010 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 2:12 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

look man, I am not going to do the research for you. I pointed you in the right direction. I am simply trying to give you some more FACTS. The facts are that biblical manuscripts don't match. Since biblical manuscripts don't match it is CLEAR that in reality when you read the Bible your reading text that is not pure to the autographs.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 2:12 PM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 37 of 118 (546400)
02-10-2010 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 3:20 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

I am pointing out that it does not matter if you read it literally or metaphorically. I don't care how you interpret the Bible. I am pointing out that what you're interpreting is not the autographs. So you reading something that is not PURE to the autographs. It does not matter how you interpret it as long as you realize your interpreting something that is not PURE to the autographs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 3:20 PM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 3:36 PM Sasuke has responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 39 of 118 (546405)
02-10-2010 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 3:36 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

then what is the point in argueing over the text?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 3:36 PM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 3:39 PM Sasuke has responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 41 of 118 (546407)
02-10-2010 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

Any/all..

Edited by Sasuke, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 3:39 PM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 44 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 5:02 PM Sasuke has responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 45 of 118 (546443)
02-10-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Sky-Writing
02-10-2010 5:02 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

I don't trust the content of the Bible. I merely agree with a few things. God's existence. Christ as savior. These are by choice cus neither of them can be proven to exist or to have existed. The reason I believe in them is solely because of revelation and dejavu... Granted both revelation and dejavu can be explained by Science... I just simply choose to be faithful.

WRT to this thread, so I don't get suspended. As I've stated before, The scripture in the Bible is derived from many different authors that span many millennia of time. Just as what another posted earlier in this thread, a lot of scripture was probably passed down by word of mouth. Then eventually it was written down by people that didn't have the entirety of the story just like in the game of phone. When you communicate a message to a friend, that message is passed through the people and eventually that message has changed when you hear it via the grapevine. This has happened with the Bible. The message is undoubtedly different than its autographs which were written, most likely, centuries after its origin. Then eventually it was copied in the form of manuscripts which is what we read in our time. However, these manuscripts were hand copied for millenia before they reached our time, plenty of time for change to occur. Then sometime in the 1500's a printing press was built, the scriptures were organized already(via culture) and so it was printed in the form of a book(even though its books).

In my opinion its safe to say that God is a for sure part of the message that existed through millenia of time. Its also reasonable to say Jesus Christ was a significant enough figure in these stories to have been preserved to some degree. As to what stigmata to assign to either of these figures I assume love just simply because its logical to presume that is part of the message as well. Things like laws though or regulations these are definately going to change over time with culture. So all that part of the Bible is for sure just crap.. Stuff like end of the world scnenarios seem ludicrus to me. Typically prophecies like seen in revelations are crap. These prophecies are simply to broad to say a phophecy is being fullfilled.. You need something specific. The world is going to turn yellow on 2015. LOL. That is pretty specific. Those are the kinda prophecies I like to see cus in 2015 we can test it. Anything else is just hogwash superstition.

This is reality, come back to it.....

Edited by Sasuke, : data


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-10-2010 5:02 PM Sky-Writing has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:07 AM Sasuke has responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 53 of 118 (546526)
02-11-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 12:07 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

Sasuke writes:

Sky,
I don't trust the content of the Bible. I merely agree with a few things. God's existence. Christ as savior. These are by choice cus neither of them can be proven to exist or to have existed.

Sky writes:

It's true that if you receive a phone call from somebody, there is no way to prove there is somebody on the other end of the conversation talking to you. But the longer you talk, and the more responses you get, the stronger your belief that there is a person there.

You have a call log that is provided by your phone company that lists the phone number and duration of the call. All you gotta do is check. I don't find this being a good example of when "god speaks to your mind" if that is what your refering to above.

Sasuke writes:

The reason I believe in them is solely because of revelation and dejavu... Granted both revelation and dejavu can be explained by Science... I just simply choose to be faithful.

Sky writes:

I've not experienced either to any extent, and I don't have a good enough imagination to apply them to my belief in God, but OK. Accepted. That's why you believe.

Your a Christian and are unaware of what a revelation is? When you pray and the prayer seemingly is answered, when you get what you ask for? Ofcourse this typically only applies when your asking for things that are truely needed and of course it can't affect the will of another. I would agree it could be a coincidence except that it happens or I should say has happened a lot in my life.

A dejavu is simply when your are someplace, with friends, family or even people you don't know which would make it more interesting and all of a sudden while the event is happening, you seemingly remember it happening before... The question is how can this be? Especially since time only moves in 1 direction...... Course I believe there is a psychological answer to this phenomena but I believe it's purely speculation over it being an educated guess...

Sasuke writes:

As I've stated before, The scripture in the Bible is derived from many different authors that span many millennia of time.

Sky writes:


40 Plus Authors
Covers 100's of controversial topics
spanning 1,500 years or so
40 plus generations
3 continents
3 languages


-Actually it is unknown how many authors there are in the Bible. Take for example the book of Genesis. It is only Jewish tradition that Moses wrote it, however, it is also clear that it was written by many people(compare G1 and G2). There is no concrete evidence that Moses wrote it either.(this is just 1 example)

-The Bible spans millenia earlier than 1500 years ago or so, or 500ce, much earlier.

-40 plus generations only takes us to approximately 10ce(around the time of the stories of Christ). Not early enough.

-I believe the Bible is known world wide.

-I believe the Bible is in all common languages. So really 3(30) or more.

Sasuke writes:

a lot of scripture was probably passed down by word of mouth.

Sky writes:

Or (much more likely) it was written by the authors as well as being passed by word of mouth.

Some evidence to consider is, are there earlier stories that are similiar to the stories in the Bible? The answer is Yes. An example would be with the book of Genesis and its creation stories(2x). There are stories from other cultures that are very similiar to that of the creation story in the Bible which date earlier than the creation story in the Bible. The point, there probably is cross cultural mixing of atleast 1 story in the Bible(other examples, refer to the epic of Gilgamesh and compare that to the flood stories in the Bible or the Code of Hammurabi and compare that to the 10 comandments in the Bible). Which is evidence to presume it occured many times. Another point is, writing developed fairly early yes but we have no idea when the creation stories began to develope atleast I don't. The point being, language developed long before writing and as such, I am sure these stories were being talked about prior to writing. Especially since writing originally developed from a form of simply financial record keeping. It was simply not until centuries after writing had developed that it was used for scripture. Writing simply had to develope to the point to where it could have been used for scripture and so on... You also have to take into account that there were not many who were literate either.

Sasuke writes:

Then eventually it was written down by people that didn't have the entirety of the story just like in the game of phone.

Sky writes:

Even in the the phone game the original text is read and everybody has a good laugh.
In order for the grapevine theory to work, the original text must be lost. The people that lived in the time these events took place are not famous for playing telephone with stories. Jesus spoke in Aramaic which is a very lyrical, poetic style of language. When the greek is re translated back to Aramaic it is found to be easy to set into rhymes or patterns. If I start "London bridge is falling down" you likely can pick up where I stopped.

Linguistic researchers have put much of what Jesus said back into similar phrases and theorize that he used this uncommon language just for that reason. And Jesus quoted the old testament with accuracy. And seemingly full knowledge of the OT text we use today.

First thing, you don't have to have the original message to play telephone. Try to be objective.

You're wrong again, all people are known for playing telephone with any story that is available. You must not be a social person.

Jesus speaking in Aramic is a moot point. Aramic had to exist as a language prior to Jesus in order for him to be able to speak it fluently. As such, there are plenty of people that could have played telephone that spoke Aramic before and after.

You really need to be a little more objective.

Sasuke writes:

This has happened with the Bible.

Sky writes:

Easy to prove.
The links you shared don't measure up to the tale that your telling however.
(Telling that you are.)
( Are that you tell.)
(You are that telling)
Now if you tnihk my masasge got list by scrbmaling theses words, srue myabe it did. But there is the other 98% to help you get back on track.


This is a good example of scrambling and it reinforces my point. Your estimation of 98% is an approximation that has some bad variables involved to equal the original sum. You need to do the actual math with the actual veriables. Count the amount of words that are in the Bible. Then count the amount of errors that are known in the Bible. You could start with the english translation however to get a better picture you really need to be reading the original languages or the manuscripts. Then you simply divide errors by the total number. Keeep in mind that how many errors there are in the Bible is not even agreed upon by people. Some agree that 99% of the Bible is error prone. Some agree that 99% of the Bible is not error prone. Do the math your self. Get counting.

Sasuke writes:

The message is undoubtedly different than its autographs which were written, most likely, centuries after its origin. Then eventually it was copied in the form of manuscripts which is what we read in our time. However, these manuscripts were hand copied for millenia before they reached our time, plenty of time for change to occur.

Sky writes:

That's all good possible theory.
You have 40,000 handwritten manuscripts to prove your point.
Until today, no one has examined the handwritten manuscripts that
we have, and reached the conclusion that the original autographs
were copied incorrectly.

If you have examples of OTHER texts showing up with gross changes, and sloppy interpretation over the same time period....then you may have a case. But at this time, your assertion is baseless.

Then there is the internal congruency. Can you take the personal opinions of 40 authors, over 1,500 years, three continents, and have their opinions agree with each other? That they all agree on one moral code?

OK, now run those 40 authors stories through your "telephone game" for 1000 years and have all their opinions and morals all line up with each other. And details about the same events.


Actually first thing, to conclude that nobody has read the manuscripts and concluded that there are errors in the manuscripts you first have to know all the people involved in this process(just compare G1 to G2). You don't. Another thing, The media only covers what money pays for so do your self a favor and stop trusting them. Now that your informed, do your self another favor and follow the evidence that you can follow your self. The links I provided in my prior post give you that chance. The only conclusion that I come to after realizing the evidence that I can follow, as posted in the links, is that the Bible is prone to errors. Especially when you consider all the different interpretations of man. I mean, how many biblical churches are there today?

Sasuke writes:

Things like laws though or regulations these are definitely going to change over time with culture. So all that part of the Bible is for sure just crap,

Sky writes:

You can call them crap. I still like the first 5, and I think the last 5 are good enough for all Americans to embrace:
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
nor his xbox, nor his TiVo, nor his little children,

Read all ten commandments. There is really only two commandments that are actually worthy laws. Don't kill and don't steal. The rest of the 10 commandments are just honor this honor that bla bla... or doing this is a bad idea or doing that is a bad idea.... Take for example(lets go back in time) don't lie. What would happen if Nazi' came to your Christian home asking if you have seen any Jews and you have Jews living down stairs in the basement? They threatened to kill you if you didn't tell them the truth. Should you lie or say hey I got some Jews downstairs...? I would lie so the jews could live but is this really a sin?

Sasuke writes:

.. Stuff like end of the world scnenarios seem ludicrus to me. Typically prophecies like seen in revelations are crap. These prophecies are simply to broad to say a phophecy is being fullfilled.. You need something specific. The world is going to turn yellow on 2015. LOL. That is pretty specific.
Those are the kinda prophecies I like to see cus in 2015 we can test it. Anything else is just hogwash superstition.
This is reality, come back to it.....

Sky writes:

2015 & Reality in the same breath. All-Righty-Then.

Look man. We exist in a plane of time. We are all in this boat. We look around in the world trying to figure out if there is a purpose or not. Everything affects who we are and what we believe. Everything from Religion to Science. Even this discussion is affecting who you are because it is an experience. The reality is simple, biblical scripture is but one ancient text to refer to when it comes to faith. As such, to be honest, none of the ancient texts congrue on a end time scenario. They are all slightly different with differing time periods for end time dates.

I also want to make the other point I was making earlier, there are no prophecies that exist that I know of, from Nostrodamus, Mayan, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddism or even Africian faiths that predict exact dates for events with specific results. All prophecies are broad not specific. This gives all prophecies room to be right and wrong during any event. It just depends how you interpret them. Interpretation is key when reading prophecies.......

Edited by Sasuke, : fixed some grammar.. -not all...

Edited by Sasuke, : edit - some more grammar issues.. -still not perfect..

Edited by Sasuke, : spelling....

Edited by Sasuke, : grammar... - clarity.... -still some issues..

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Sky-Writing, posted 02-11-2010 12:07 AM Sky-Writing has not yet responded

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 54 of 118 (546531)
02-11-2010 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by greyseal
02-11-2010 3:58 AM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
grayseal,

2012.. dun dun dun...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by greyseal, posted 02-11-2010 3:58 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
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Sasuke
Member (Idle past 3491 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 56 of 118 (546545)
02-11-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Sky-Writing
02-11-2010 2:09 PM


Re: Not sure what else to expect
Sky,

Sky writes:

You should instead, be critical of the amount of effort by non believers who are still in bed, not lifting an eyelid to help you out.

Are you saying that gentiles don't research? In fact its the opposite. Typically it is the Christians that don't do the research because they presume goddidit. The difference between fundies and scientists is that scientists study fundies Uhhdy(goddidit).

Sky writes:

Yes you can. That is one method to use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible
If 40+ authors, writing over 1000 years,
all agree on matters of ethics and morality,
then all the writings were corrupted by some editor so they would agree,
or you have the Word of God in your hands.
Because you'll be hard pressed to find 2 people alive in your half of the United States
who agree on all matters of ethics and morality.

The authors of the Bible do not all agree with each other. You have facts and then you have the interpreters. The facts are in the Bible written by the authors, its called scripture... The interpreters are people like you and I. I guarantee you as we interpret biblical scripture that we are not going to agree with what it says, in fact there is much argument among scholars just due to personal belief structure per scholar(money can even affect their views or atleast what is reported to the mainstream public...) Your predisposition is false.

Another thing, your link is simply a definition, it does not report that there is in fact a congruence between authors in the Bible.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : edit

Edited by Sasuke, : No reason given.

Edited by Sasuke, : edit


This message is a reply to:
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