Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Salvation vs. Helping Others
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 30 (545928)
02-06-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
02-04-2010 8:06 AM


Fish or Fishermen: that is the question
Stile writes:
I am interested in learning what people's priorities are.
Perhaps even what you think the Bible's priorities are.
As stated in the originating thread, there are two possible ways to interpret your query. The first way would focus on the priorities of the evangelist in his fishing for men. Should such a fisherman;
a) ..seek that the 'fish' understand Jesus Christ to be his (the fishes) savior unto salvation?
b) ..seek to do good work for the fish in the hope that this (the fishers) light shining on the fish will affect and influence the fish unto salvation?
To this I responded that both elements have their place in the armoury of the fisherman. Both are proscribed by Jesus as tools to be used in the task of fishing for men. The focus wasn't on the activity/belief of the fish. This confusion:
If, somehow, they are the same thing, then why isn't "being good and nice" treated in the same way as being reliant on Jesus Christ for salvation? That is, why would there exist any need to recruit anyone to Jesus Christ who is already good and nice? Unless, of course... the two are not the same priority...
...should now be cleared up. Your focus appears to be on the fish here, whereas I was suggesting a [i]fisherman[i/] could be expected to combine both evangelising Christ & doing good work in his fishing activity.
-
You are in the centre of a street. You learn of two people, one in a building on the North side, the other in a building on the South side.
Person in North building - Is very adept at helping others yet does not know of any person named Jesus Christ, or anything about salvation (doesn't even know it's something he may be interested in or even exists).
-Think of the nice neighbour who just doesn't go to church or deal with religion in any way.
Person in South building - Has in-depth knowledge of Jesus Christ. Fully believes that Jesus Christ is his personal saviour and the only method for his salvation. However, he doesn't help other people.
-Think of the devout religious guy who still cuts people off in traffic and such.
Who do you go and talk to first?
A couple of questions by way of clarification:
1) At 'You are in the centre of a street' I take the 'You' to mean a fisher of men?
2) Are we to assume that the guy in the North building is currently lost? I don't believe a person necessarily has to have heard of Jesus Christ in order to be saved (I point to the characters in the Old Testament for precedence). Given that, and that a persons good works are not held as relevant to the issue of their salvation, we can't tell what this persons current status is.
3) The same question goes for the guy in the South building. If he is saved then his belief in Christ-as-saviour arises out of his being saved (it's not just the product of eg: cultural Christianity). His lack of works not being relevant to the issue of his salvation (if he is saved), we don't need to prioritise him from a fishing sense. We might, as I said previously, inquire as to why it is he is not fulfilling the tasks his master has set him - but that would be secondary to a fishing expedition.
You can see my dilemma - there simply isn't enough information to answer your question. To recap:
- good works don't result in salvation, no good works don't prevent salvation and no good works don't preclude one remaining saved once saved.
- "knowing Jesus Christ as your saviour" isn't a requirement for salvation. "Knowing Jesus Christ as your saviour", if the produce of eg: cultural Christianity, is salvifically useless .
Given the lack of specific information, both people can be considered 'potentially lost' for want of further info. Both occupy equal priority in the sight of a fisherman.
-
1. How many different parables did Jesus tell to other people when he was attempting to teach them lessons?
2. In those parables, how many parable-characters made sure that other people were recruited into specifically believing that they are reliant on Jesus Christ as the single necessary tool for salvation.
3. How many different times did Jesus identify himself to other people as the single necessary tool for salvation?
4. When attempting to teach others, would Jesus generally do both of these things? (Provide a parable and also identify himself as the single necessary tool for salvation?) If so, which did he do first?
I'm no great Bible student either so I'll leave these (large) questions to others.
-
Personally, I think that being good and nice is far and above any belief in Jesus Christ (or any other person or charcater) as personal saviour for any necessary salvation-purposes. I also think that Jesus Christ himself thinks this (but I admit my biblical knowledge is weak).
I'd agree he can be read this way.
One of my favorite passages for his indicating salvation not only not by good work - but impossible by good work - is his dealing with the Rich Ruler at Luke 18. Yet this passage can be easily read from the perspective of Jesus pointing to salvation by works.
The problem for the "workist" however, is that he has difficulty reconciling that interpretation of Jesus at Luke 18 with Paul's clear statements regarding salvation by grace without works.
-
Even if believing in Jesus Christ really is the only way for personal salvation, I still put being good and nice as a higher priority than my own salvation. Such a thing can be judged as stupid or honourable, but again, my convictions do not rest on how others judge such things.
It would more likely be judged as prideful - by God - if God is the one who has provided for your salvation in Jesus.
When the God of Creation says that your righteous acts are as "filthy rags" and you disagree and call them stupid or honourable then you are placing your opinion regarding your good work above his. I mean, what else but pride would tell God that you place your perogative for you above his for you?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 02-04-2010 8:06 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Stile, posted 02-15-2010 12:39 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 30 (547111)
02-16-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
02-15-2010 12:39 PM


Re: Fish or Fishermen: that is the question
Stile writes:
No, you are not to assume anything. You are to accept the situation and make a decision. The situation is attempting to resemble real-life decisions. In real-life, we generally do not know what any stranger's "current status" is. Why should this question be any easier?
Fair enough. As pointed out, the information supplied doesn't allow me (a fisher of men) to conclude the lost/found status of either person. Either could be lost, either could be found.
The safest thing to do is conclude them both lost - which doesn't help me prioritise which one to approach first.
-
I agree. Jesus Christ and God can do whatever they like with their gifts of salvation. What does this have to do with whether or not we should try to be good people? It is not honourable to try and be a good person just because it's a part of salvation. In fact, one should really try to be a good person regardless of personal salvation. Doesn't that seem selfless? Isn't being selfless a good thing?
You said..
quote:
I mean "You" to be "anyone who would like to answer the question."
This 'You' is looking at the situation from the point of view of a fisher of men. I can't think of any equi-significant reason to be interested in what the folk in either tower are believing/doing outside of the part those things play in their eternal destination. So what if they "do good", so what if they "know lots" about Jesus Christ?
If finally lost, then all the "honour" of trying your best to do good turned out to only aid and abet your damnation - in which no honour will be found, only shame. IF the God-given urging to do good is aimed only at illustrating for/to you that you can't actually live up to that urge. THEN twisting his intent so as to harmonise that urge with some or other contra-God philosophy isn't selfless or good. It's self-centred ("my philosophy should rule OK") and evil.
A found person does good as a consequence of having been found. Not as a means of gaining salvation in the first place. I've already made that clear - or thought I did - so am not quite sure why you're supposing my suggesting doing good be 'a part' of salvation*.
-
I'm really not trying to talk about salvation. I couldn't care less about what some God may or may not judge my life as. I care about being a good person. I think Jesus Christ cared about being a [insert: good] person. I think that Jesus Christ focused his morals and speeches on how to be a good person. I think that the Bible's talk of Jesus Christ as God and his death and resurrection is an attention-grabbing fireworks show in order to bring people over so that they can see Jesus' life and lessons on how to be a good person.
You're entitled to edit out whatever bits you like so as to arrive at whatever conclusion you like. Dealing with the whole however, shouldn't cause you to arrive at this "Jesus was a moral teacher" terminus. Jesus' message did indeed exhort man to live a good live.
Or else
Which is where salvation raises it's head. You can't live the life he demanded. Which leaves you facing the 'or else'.
Or else
I do agree, though, that no one should try to be a good person in order to gain salvation. Such a thing is fake and obviously "not good". How can someone "be good" (selfless) if they are trying to attain salvation (be selfish)? It doesn't make any sense.
* Fair enough
Although I don't think trying to save yourself is a selfish thing to do. So long as you don't step on others heads in order to get there I mean.
-
Don't you believe that God wrote how-to-be-good on our hearts? So, if i follow what's written on my heart, honestly, isn't this then doing what God wants? How could it possibly be anything else?
I believe that everyman has available to him a knowledge of good and evil. Written on his heart if you like. If you followed what God thought good then you would be fine: saved come that day. But you don't. You won't. For alongside the knowledge of good and evil made available to you is a desire to sin.
We all do what we think is right. You may phrase it as "I'm doing what I think God wants me to do..." but it's still what you think is right. I can't just ignore what my heart is honestly saying is right and just take the advice of iano's heart... that doesn't move forward at all. That's simply lazy.
You know what's right and why it's right. But you find you can't actually do it. Not all the time. I'm in the same boat as you. Everyone is.
I am forced to do whatever it is I think is right until such a time that God enlightens me. It is possible that God may attempt to enlighten me through iano... but it is also possible that iano may attempt to lead me astray. So, again, I am left with doing what I honestly feel is right, until such a time that God illuminates His desires to me.
And how, precisely, do you deal with your doing what you know to be wrong? You don't have to listen to me - you only have to listen to you.
Now, you could do as I frequently did (although not even I could do it all the time) and suppress the knowledge that you've done wrong. About the most ludicrous one in my memory is the time when I was handling a stolen motorbike - converting it to legit, in other words. I remember laughing at the magnetic Holy Medal of Mary stuck under the seat right beside the wiring that had been cut to disable the alarm. "That didn't do you much good" I thought to myself. A few days later, someone had it away with my own motorcycle. My pride and joy. And I was livid: "the filthy, thieving b'tards - if I could only get my frikkin hands on them I'd wring their necks.."
Honestly, I carried this off without even a hint of internal conflict.
Suppression: a sinners flexible friend.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Stile, posted 02-15-2010 12:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 02-16-2010 2:15 PM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 16 of 30 (547255)
02-17-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Stile
02-16-2010 2:15 PM


Re: Fish or Fishermen: that is the question
Stile writes:
Is your definition of "lost" something equivalent to "saved" or "knows Jesus Christ as personal saviour" or something like that?
If so, then your "lost" is equivalent to the "knowledge of Jesus Christ" I'm attempting to describe. If not, you'll have to describe what you mean by "lost" so that I can understand what you're talking about.
Lost is equivilent to "not saved". It is equivilent to "not knowing Jesus Christ as personal Saviour". It is equivilent to "not loving the truth and so being saved". In all cases above, it assumed we are dealing with God's definition of what saved/knowing Christ/loving truth is. As opposed to alternatives such as "knowing Jesus Christ as personal Saviour" in a culturally-adopted-Christianity way.
Someone can say "I'm Irish - my passport says so". But if their passport isn't issued by the Irish authorities then their profession - though genuinely held - doesn't reflect the fact of the matter. Similiarly, that someone "recognises Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour" need not mean they actually recognise Jesus as Lord and Saviour in the manner proscribed by the divine Authority. They might have simply been raised to believe what they believe without the kind of divine intervention that enables true (we are supposing) belief in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.
And so our professing tower block friend may or may not be a Christian. His profession doesn't tell us enough.
-
If finally lost, then all the "honour" of trying your best to do good turned out to only aid and abet your damnation - in which no honour will be found, only shame.
Perhaps. But without anything to show us definitively, we can't really say, can we? And again, we're left trying our best to do our best.
What's shown definitively, is that you cannot do the good you think (in your better moments) should be done. Indeed, you'll find yourself railing at people doing more or less precisely as you yourself do (except that your doing so in these times might be justified away in a way disallowed others). You've a dilemma: you've an urge to do your best.. and you find you cannot do your best.
Now, you can either keep on beating your head against that same brick wall called "Trying to do your best". Or you can ponder a little on the conclusion definitively (or should by be) arrived at: The Urge and the failure to meet the demands of The Urge.
By all means await some other definitive. Me? I think you've enough of a definitive to be getting on with. Suppression is, I've suggested, a sinfuls mans flexible friend. And here's an example: a definitive dilemma to which your response seems to a head-in-the-sand
quote:
we're left trying to do our best
By all means carry on. You might appreciate why God could take a dim view on such ..er.. evasion.
-
Oh? Are you able to show why?
I thought I did. You're supposing Jesus some kind of moral teacher whilst failing to take account of two invariables:
- he (unlike you) never suggests that you should try your best. It's "do this, do that"
- he warns that if you don't do this or that then there's an "or else"
If you really want me to post passages where Jesus says "or else" then I will. Perhaps you could post something where he suggests that "trying your best" is his intent when it comes to doing good?
-
But I don't see this as the overall message in the Bible anywhere. Sure, there's bits and pieces that can be mashed together as support for such. But overall? If we look at what Jesus focused on, overall, he didn't focus on salvation or promoting himself as any single path for anything. He touched on those things... but didn't focus on them. He focused (spent most of his time with most of his listeners) on describing how to live a good life.
We'd probably have to do a separate study on such a notion. I'd be pretty doubtful you could sustain this particular view. You'd need to slice out Paul for a start since he's the one clarifying salvation by anything but works. Which is a pretty big "bits n' pieces" at about 1/3 of the NT. Allied to the above problems regarding the standard He demanded..
-
Not quite.
I don't claim to know what is right at all.
I claim to be able show the reasoning behind what I think is right. Namely, that helping people is good and hurting people is bad. But I certainly don't claim to know what's right and wrong, that's impossible because right and wrong are not fundamentally objective ideas.
As you wish regarding your denial of knowledge.
The point is you can't do what you find yourself urged to do. You act against your own reasoning - despite supposing it your ultimate guide. And the result is hurt people. And you know this and won't (I hope) deny this.
This is sufficient knowledge for you to be judged against: doing what you yourself consider wrong.
Now you can continue along the "I'd better try even better, hadn't I ?" route. There's no escape from that route however. Or you could begin to start concluding that there's something askew with you. That is the suggested purpose of God. To have you begin to start concluding there's something askew with you.
"The law is a schoolteacher (not to "exhort you to try harder") to lead you to Christ"
The bit in brackets is your view. The rest is scriptures view of The Urge.
-
And how, precisely, do you deal with your doing what you know to be wrong?
By accepting that I made a mistake, learning from it,and trying to do better in the future. It's not an entirely new or difficult idea
Given the question: how can you knowingly make a mistake? That would be a very new idea!
-
Now, you could do as I frequently did (although not even I could do it all the time) and suppress the knowledge that you've done wrong.
No, I don't do that. I would suggest that such a thing is foolish at best and personally destructive at worse.
Suppressing knowledge is always foolish. How can any mature adult expect to learn if they suppress knowledge?
And, if you suppress such things on a regular basis, you could develop a habit and accidentally begin suppressing some things you'd rather not suppress... which gets into the personally destructive aspect.
Supposing sticking a knife into someones chest a "mistake" involves a certain suppression of knowledge, don't you think?
-
We seem to have drifted. How to get on track? At present, I can't see a way to prioritise the building occupants - their views not necessarily producing salvation for them - with salvation being the ultimate priority.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 02-16-2010 2:15 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Stile, posted 02-18-2010 10:56 AM iano has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024