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Author Topic:   A Discussion of the Rationalization of Slavery
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1208 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 46 of 50 (547159)
02-16-2010 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by onifre
02-15-2010 10:45 PM


Re: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Easy DA, get off the soup box. I didn't mean 'who cares' as in if it were happening now who cares.

Slavery is horrible, all forms of it, whether aggressive or under the radar. I hate, despise, find it abhorent to enslave any thing, so I fully agree with you. But again, in many cases I like to call out certain hypocrisies and note that we humans advocate many forms of slavery, all be it under other labels.

Agreed.

Like a circus for instance. But we look the other way, and even enjoy the entertainment aspect of it.

Some do. Not everyone.

And I'm not saying that some circus' don't take good proper care of the animals, but it would be the same as saying some slave owners took good proper care of their slaves. But here again I don't care because it's human nature to do this;

Human nature? Or do you mean animal instincts. Human nature is whatever we chose our nature to be. With intelligence comes greater responsibility and accountability. At the top of the intelligence chain we actually have the collective intellect to make meaningful changes. If we chose to. That is my point. But first we must acknowledge the shit that we have cause other human beings and organisms on this planet and then correct ourselves.

like I said before: to control and use those who are weaker or less intelligent.

We don't have to. We just choose to. Yes, it is in our nature to survive and adapt but we can temper this with balanced altruism as well. There is a balance between the two extremes (pure unadulterated altruism can be damaging to our survival as a species as well). There is a place for altruism, self-preservation and self-serving ambition. It is a balance that we need to strive for in order to survive as a species and not blow each other up to smitherines (reference October 1962).

We do it with animals in labs as well.

True, and I am hoping one day we can put this behind us as well.

I agree, we should fight back, but for all species, not just one particular organism. What's the sense of calling it moral if it's selective?

Baby steps. We have yet to have equality for all humans much less for all intelligent and sentient organisms on this planet (i.e. primates, dolphins, elephants, etc). Hopefully one day we will get there. One step at a time.

Also, it's great to fight against slavery but there are many forms of it that we take part in every day. The alternative to slavery was another form of manipulation, just not by way of force.

Agreed. First we must fight the root of the problem and that is intollerance. Slavery and inequality can take many forms whether it be physical or psychological.

Freedom from slavery is not being able to consume as you please, and that's what we have defined it as. Remember, its not "freedom" that one gets, it "the same freedom awareded to everyone else" - whatever those may be. Its freedom because someone called it freedom, but in my opinion it's not true freedom.

Freedom as defined by many humanists is the freedom to make choices without undue and harmful influence by others. Caveat to this is that one's freedom should not impede the freedom of others i.e. you are not free to harm or take the life of another human being.

I know where you are going with this Oni. It is true that in all sense of the word we are still animals subject to our basic instincts and psychological/social influences, even when we consider ourselves the most free (except of course married men ). I am not sure if this is really an issue though because as long as we feel we are free than isn't that all that matters whether we truely are cognitively free or not (whatever that may mean)?

But that's why I said ignore my opinion, because it will drag the thread off-topic.

Since Buz is not going to back up his ridiculous racist comments, I don't see the harm in straying a little off-topic here on the subject of freedom.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by onifre, posted 02-15-2010 10:45 PM onifre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-17-2010 2:48 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 50 (547240)
02-17-2010 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate
02-16-2010 8:19 PM


Re: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Also, it's great to fight against slavery but there are many forms of it that we take part in every day. The alternative to slavery was another form of manipulation, just not by way of force.

Agreed. First we must fight the root of the problem and that is intollerance.

Bwah? How d'you figure that one?

Seems more of a greed thing to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-16-2010 8:19 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-18-2010 1:14 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1208 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 48 of 50 (547309)
02-18-2010 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by New Cat's Eye
02-17-2010 2:48 PM


Re: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Bwah? How d'you figure that one?

Seems more of a greed thing to me.

Agreed, self-centered and uncontrolled greed seems to be a better word to use here.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-17-2010 2:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2010 10:12 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 50 (547337)
02-18-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by DevilsAdvocate
02-18-2010 1:14 AM


Re: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Bwah? How d'you figure that one?
Seems more of a greed thing to me.

Agreed, self-centered and uncontrolled greed seems to be a better word to use here.

Yes, and I think it goes even further in that you're wrong about slavery being driven by racism.

People were looking for cheap labor and free is about as cheap as you can get.

The Africans were inferior, by education, technology, resources, etc., and they got exploited because they were an easy target.

I wasn't like a bunch of white guys figured they hated the black guys so they decided to enslave them.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-18-2010 1:14 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-18-2010 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1208 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 50 of 50 (547342)
02-18-2010 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2010 10:12 AM


Re: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Yes, and I think it goes even further in that you're wrong about slavery being driven by racism.

People were looking for cheap labor and free is about as cheap as you can get.

The Africans were inferior, by education, technology, resources, etc., and they got exploited because they were an easy target.

What I am saying is that racism (a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others) gave these people the moral justification to do what they did. Racism was and is still rampant and common.

I wasn't like a bunch of white guys figured they hated the black guys so they decided to enslave them.

This is a little bit too simplistic. I would agree though and say it was more of disdain and contempt than pure unadulterated hate. However, racism was and is part and parcel with the "greedy" attitudes of many of these people. It gave them justification for what they did. By seeing these people as sub-human and animal like it gave them more insentive to treat these people as such.

To ignore this fact is to marginalize the psychology behind why they acted the way they did. I agree that slavery is a complex subject and there are various reasons why people enslaved other people, even people of the same ethnicity/cultures. However, there is usually always an attitude of bias and discrimination of one person or group of people over another. This can take many forms of discrimination and inequality including sexism, ageism, racism, ethnisim, classism, nationalism, ableism (discrimination against the handicaped) etc.

Essentially it is a survival instinct of "us vs them" that permeates all living organisms from bacteria to human beings both as individuals and in social groupings.

The difference with human beings is that we have the greatest capacity to overcome these survival instincts. We also have the capacity to do the greatest damage, not just with our own species but with all life on this planet.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2010 10:12 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
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