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Author Topic:   Eusebius the Liar? - Pious Fraud Endorsed to Advance Christianity
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 3 of 49 (547374)
02-18-2010 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
02-18-2010 4:07 PM


You don't say what defeses of Eusebius you've already read. One of them might have been mine.
Anyway, in this case he's just saying what every orthodox Bible fan must believe --- that (a) the anthropomorphic imagery of Good in the Bible is inaccurate and (b) that there's still a good reason why it should be there.
This isn't a reason to knock Eusebius' integrity particularly. Nor do I think it justifies your title: "Pious Fraud Endorsed to Advance Christianity".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jazzns, posted 02-18-2010 4:07 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 12:10 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 46 by Thin Man, posted 04-17-2010 5:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 49 (547417)
02-19-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jazzns
02-19-2010 12:10 AM


Must believe? I have encountered a wide range of beliefs regarding the accuracy and/or literalism of the OT.
Well, I did say orthodox. The idea that God literally has limbs and passions is the "anthropomorphite heresy".
Again, I am not sure how wide this belief actually is even if it is highly regarded. Certainly none of the Christian experiences I have had personally have been anything close to this.
Well, this is just a logical consequence of thinking that the Bible is the word of God. It follows from this there must have been some good reason why the Bible describes God as having hands, feet, nostrils, etc.
Here's the Catholic Encyclopedia on the subject of anthropomorphism. Note that they're saying the same thing as Eusebius, and the same thing that I attributed to the orthodox:
The Bible, especially the Old Testament , abounds in anthropomorphic expressions. Almost all the activities of organic life are ascribed to the Almighty. He speaks, breathes, sees, hears; He walks in the garden; He sits in the heavens, and the earth is His footstool. It must, however, be noticed that in the Bible locutions of this kind ascribe human characteristics to God only in a vague, indefinite way. He is never positively declared to have a body or a nature the same as man's ; and human defects and vices are never even figuratively attributed to Him. The metaphorical, symbolical character of this language is usually obvious. The all-seeing Eye signifies God's omniscience; the everlasting Arms His omnipotence ; His Sword the chastisement of sinners ; when He is said to have repented of having made man, we have an extremely forcible expression conveying His abhorrence of sin. The justification of this language is found in the fact that truth can be conveyed to men only through the medium of human ideas and thoughts, and is to be expressed only in language suited to their comprehension.
So you see it's their doctrine that the anthropomorphic language is not to be taken literaly but that there's still a good reason for it being in the Bible.
And here's a Protestant theologian saying the same thing:
Finally, we are faced with Scripture referring to God's "hands", "eyes", "ears", and so forth (e.g., Deut. 33:27; Ps. 11:4; Isa. 59:1). We see also that God is at times represented as if He had specific locality (e.g., Genesis 11:5,7; Psalm 2:4). Some teachers and sects draw from such passages the notion that God "has a body." However, that this is not the case can be easily seen when we consider the whole of Scripture. It should be evident from the many clear statements cited above that such language cannot be taken literally.
Such statements are called anthropomorphisms - these are metaphorical expressions used by God as an accommodation (or, condescension) to our finite understanding. Simply put, God speaks to us on our finite level, chiefly because we cannot ascend to His infinite level. (11) In the same way, God is represented as "discovering" information, "repenting," and so forth. That God has revealed truth about Himself in this way should not surprise us. Paul recognized this very fact in 1 Corinthians 13:12. To literalize such language is the ancient error of the sect known as the Anthropomorphites (Greek, anthros = man, morph = form).
It is interesting to note that Eusebius lived in the fourth century, a time when Anthropomorphites (Audians) had some following. So he had a motivation to put forward the use of such metaphorical language in the OT as being an example of a good idea and one of the admirable features of Hebrew thought, as he does in the passage we're discussing.

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 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 12:10 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 10:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 49 (547418)
02-19-2010 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jazzns
02-19-2010 12:15 AM


It is somewhat hard to say because the best reference we have to the TF is Eusebius himself.
We also have the Histories of Josephus themselves. Eusebius is just the first person who quotes the TF from them --- although given that we don't have Eusebius' autograph manuscripts either, it is perfectly possible that someone amended Eusebius to bring him into line with what they thought Josephus said.
To actually blame Eusebius for any tampering in the TF is a leap of the imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 12:15 AM Jazzns has replied

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 Message 15 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 10:34 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 16 of 49 (547424)
02-19-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
02-19-2010 12:25 AM


i would like to know what bearing any of this has on the bible
Lets say Eusebius deliberately lied in some of his own writings...how does that affect the writings of the Apostles
Eusebius offers evidence external to the New Testament which corroborates it. So to someone who was wondering about the credibility of the Gospels, the writing of Eusebius makes the Gospels more credible --- but only if Eusebius himself is credible. Obviously if Eusebius was a big fat liar, then his testimony carries no weight. We must also ask whether he was any good as a critical historian, or whether he was taken in by stuff that other people had made up.
My own opinion is that he was honest, but that he too easily allowed himself to be bamboozled by the inventions of others. The Edessan correspondence would be a case in point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 02-19-2010 12:25 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Peg, posted 02-19-2010 7:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 17 of 49 (547425)
02-19-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jazzns
02-19-2010 10:28 AM


Once again I say that giving Eusebius the total benefit of the doubt only results in making him a story teller rather than a historian. I don't know how this paints the church's reliance upon him all that much better than if he was a confirmed liar.
Yes, but the difference is that people shouldn't go around saying that he was a liar if he was merely gullible. 'Cos of it not being true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 10:28 AM Jazzns has replied

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 Message 18 by Jazzns, posted 02-19-2010 11:44 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 22 of 49 (547502)
02-19-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Peg
02-19-2010 7:00 PM


I dont see it that way.
He had not hand in the actual writing of the NT, so credible or not, he was not involved in it.
But that is just why his testimony, if trustworthy, would be valuable --- it would be independent evidence for the Gospels.
He did not write anything claiming inspiration ...
Nor did the evangelists. But Muhammad did. What's that got to do with anything?
i think most historians fall into that category, dont they? Has there ever been a 100% accurate historian?
Probably not. Nonetheless, the writings of ancient historians have some evidential value as to what actually went on in the ancient world.

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 Message 20 by Peg, posted 02-19-2010 7:00 PM Peg has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 49 (560272)
05-14-2010 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Thin Man
04-17-2010 5:22 PM


I would say the title fits. Even Euseibus himself admitted that lying was OK to advance the faith.
... no.
He uses this passage in Evangelical Demonstration Book (3) page 124:
"Certainly the attestions I have already produced concerning our saviour may be sufficent. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
He forged the references to Jesus in the TF!
Evidence?
There are various things we might think about the Demonstratio Evangelica and the TF.
One is that Eusebius managed to forge the passage in Josephus such as to fool all his contemporaries.
Another is that someone else had previously forged that passage and Eusebius was his dupe.
A third is that the same person who interpolated that passage into Josephus also introduced the corresponding passage into Eusebius.
A fourth is ... ah, I can't be bothered, it gets a bit complicated at this point.
A fifth would be that the TF is true.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2010 5:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 49 of 49 (560357)
05-14-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by PaulK
05-14-2010 5:00 AM


Agreed. My suggestion that it might be the real deal was for the sake of completeness only. It seems clear that the TF would not have been written by a non-Christian such as Josephus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2010 5:00 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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