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Author Topic:   Passover problems in the Gospels
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 91 of 107 (547243)
02-17-2010 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by purpledawn
02-17-2010 12:36 PM


Re: Passover Is A Nomadic Custom
I think the implication is that the priestly rules were different than what they had been used to. It started as a family celebration. I don't see that it was considered a sabbath.
So the establishment of Passover day as a sabbath happens in Ex 12:16. I don't have a resource to check what documentary source this verse comes from. If it is J or E, then at the very least that hypothesis would need to be pushed back a bit. It is also established in Leviticus which is P if I remember correctly. Certainly P has motivation to emphasize it as they are materially rewarded by both the establishment of the sabbath and the centralization of the rituals.
I guess more correctly, they didn't celebrate the combined celebration in the manner later required by the priests. It would be interesting to know if they still sacrificed a lamb for immunity when moving the herd.
Or they simply celebrated Passover as prescribed but pre-centralization by Josiah. There seems to be a lot of what-ifs when someone like me is not an expert in the details of the documentary hypothesis.
I seem to recall that there is a hypothesis that, since the Exodus did not actually happen as described, that only certain Hebrew traditions had the Exodus myth to start with (perhaps from some Hebrews that HAD come from Egypt, who were perhaps the Levites since they didn't actually have territory). Obviously by the time you get to the documentary sources, it is pervasive so I would not be suprised to see the Passover established earlier than what you are thinking. I also would not be suprised if it were as recent as they are claiming as ritual traditions were quite volatile at the time of P.
I'm not 100% either, but I thought the critical view in the entry was intriguing. From what I was reading the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a celebration that required pilgrimage.
So then the question would be if the holidays were combined pre or post Judea/Isreal split. If P is the source for combining the holidays, then perhaps that was just another tool to be used by the priests to cement the centralization.
Did the E writer have their own rules or was it just a basic memorial day a family could celebrate at home if they felt like it? Not necessarily set in stone.
Certainly E would have motivation to keep it de-centralized. If the northern lands didn't have to go to Jerusalem for Passover (assuming it was even established at that time) then all the better for the north. IIRC they already sort of were trying to wiggle out of some of the travel requirements by making other northern cities acceptable for pilgramage.
IMO, we can't know for certain what happened amongst the average people, but it does make one think. The Jews became more ritualistic while in exile.
Sure! They really believed that they were being punished b/c they messed up with God. It couldn't have been that they had an impudent king who thought he could stand up to the Babylonians could it?
I don't have an answer either. I'll have to keep looking. It is curious through. More to think about.
Let me know if you find anything. I have heard ideas ranging from "it was just more popular" to "it was part of the deal to centralize the major sects around the Roman authority". Both would make sense, but I haven't come across any real evidence for either, yet.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 02-17-2010 12:36 PM purpledawn has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 92 of 107 (547252)
02-17-2010 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jazzns
02-17-2010 3:44 PM


Re: Passover Is A Nomadic Custom
quote:
So the establishment of Passover day as a sabbath happens in Ex 12:16. I don't have a resource to check what documentary source this verse comes from. If it is J or E, then at the very least that hypothesis would need to be pushed back a bit. It is also established in Leviticus which is P if I remember correctly. Certainly P has motivation to emphasize it as they are materially rewarded by both the establishment of the sabbath and the centralization of the rituals.
Exodus 12:16 is priestly addition, which was supposedly written sometime after the fall of the northern kingdom. So it would fall in line with Leviticus. This is when the rituals became centralized.
quote:
So then the question would be if the holidays were combined pre or post Judea/Isreal split. If P is the source for combining the holidays, then perhaps that was just another tool to be used by the priests to cement the centralization.
In the book "A History of the Jews", by Paul Johnson, he notes that the increase in rituals came when they lost control of their kingdoms. They turned to their ancient writings for inspiration. This is what kept them united as a people as they waited to return home. Bad times draw people together.
quote:
Certainly E would have motivation to keep it de-centralized. If the northern lands didn't have to go to Jerusalem for Passover (assuming it was even established at that time) then all the better for the north. IIRC they already sort of were trying to wiggle out of some of the travel requirements by making other northern cities acceptable for pilgramage.Certainly E would have motivation to keep it de-centralized. If the northern lands didn't have to go to Jerusalem for Passover (assuming it was even established at that time) then all the better for the north. IIRC they already sort of were trying to wiggle out of some of the travel requirements by making other northern cities acceptable for pilgramage.
In the time of J & E, they could sacrifice where they wished. Supposedly only the Feast of Unleavened Bread was a pilgimage. According to that article anyway.
Judaism changed quite a bit in the exile. They were influenced by other religions and lost the right to rule themselves.
That's why we have conflicts even in the OT. There's cut and past and rewrites. It isn't really carved in stone. That was the point of the Oral Torah. To grow as civilization grows.
Even the NT went through rewrites by church father's before it was deemed done and no one could change it.
quote:
Sure! They really believed that they were being punished b/c they messed up with God. It couldn't have been that they had an impudent king who thought he could stand up to the Babylonians could it?
Right, so the priest convinced them to knuckle down and get super strict on religion. That's all they had left. The Persians had no problem letting them worship as they wished.
quote:
Let me know if you find anything. I have heard ideas ranging from "it was just more popular" to "it was part of the deal to centralize the major sects around the Roman authority". Both would make sense, but I haven't come across any real evidence for either, yet.
I can't remember if John was ever questionable or not.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 93 of 107 (547268)
02-17-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Peg
02-17-2010 7:34 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
ok hERICtic, you win...
Oh, goody! What do I win????
The points I wish to stress are this.
OT scripture states the lambs were killed on the 14th.
OT scripture states between the evening refers to the end of the day.
OT scripture states its an 8 day celebration, Passover followed by SEVEN days of unleavened bread.
OT scripture states its from the 14th to the 21st.
If the meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th as you claim, it would be eight days unleavened bread, not seven.
If the meal was eaten as you say, why the haste? The story makes sense if it was eaten at the end of the day, beginning of the next day.
I gave writings which also state its at the end of the day.
Even Josephus states it was eaten at the end of the day.
NT scripture (the point we were initially debating) claims it was the end of the day.
12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
Whatever day this is, its the day the lambs are killed. We'll say the day begins at 6:01pm. So after this point, his followers ask where to make preparations to eat the lamb. You say its closer to 6:01, I say its much later.
13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."
So they find a room, make preparations to eat the Passover.
16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."
Notice what it states, evening comes. This could only mean its the end of the day.
Your link info states
And it is not permissible to slay it during any period of the light, but during the period bordering on the evening, and let them eat it at the time of the evening, until the third part of the night, and whatever is left over of all its flesh from the third part of the night and onwards, let them burn it with fire . . . (Jubilees 49:1-2, 10-13, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles)
According to this, the lambs were not to be eaten in any part of the 'light' so eating after the sun came up was out of the question.
You agree the day began in the evening. If the day began at dusk, and the above states that the lambs were to be eaten before any light appeared, then they must have been eaten sometime after sundown on the 14th. Yes?
It was eaten on the 15th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 7:34 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 8:06 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 94 of 107 (547278)
02-17-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by hERICtic
02-17-2010 6:27 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes:
OT scripture states between the evening refers to the end of the day.
where does it state that?
Please show the scripture you are refering to becaues i havnt seen it.
hERICtic writes:
If the meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th as you claim, it would be eight days unleavened bread, not seven.
Did you count the number of days in totat that i posted previously?
14th - 15th - 16th - 17th - 18th - 19th - 20th- 21st.
How many days does this make?
8? Yes.
The FOUB was said to run for 7 days. The scriptures say the festival was to begin on the 15th and end on the 21st. That is seven days yet when you actually count the number of days from the 14th, we have 8 days.
the conclusion is that the passover lamb was eaten on the 14th ( before the angel passed over the houses) as the scriptures say, then the 7 day FOUB was held after the 'Passover Lamb' was eaten on the 14th.
You keep saying it was eaten on the 15th, but i dont see how it could be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by hERICtic, posted 02-17-2010 6:27 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by bluescat48, posted 02-17-2010 9:49 PM Peg has replied
 Message 97 by hERICtic, posted 02-18-2010 5:41 AM Peg has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 95 of 107 (547287)
02-17-2010 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Peg
02-17-2010 8:06 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
You keep saying it was eaten on the 15th, but i dont see how it could be.
Because the 15th stated at sundown.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 8:06 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Peg, posted 02-18-2010 3:52 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 96 of 107 (547311)
02-18-2010 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by bluescat48
02-17-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
bluescat48 writes:
Because the 15th stated at sundown.
every day started at sundown including the 14th... now considering the 14th is said to be the day the passover is to be eaten, i dont see why everyone is saying its the 15th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by bluescat48, posted 02-17-2010 9:49 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by bluescat48, posted 02-18-2010 6:36 AM Peg has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 97 of 107 (547315)
02-18-2010 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Peg
02-17-2010 8:06 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes:
OT scripture states between the evening refers to the end of the day.
where does it state that?
Please show the scripture you are refering to becaues i havnt seen it.
Between the evenings should have been the term to use. This refers to the end of the day. Lamb slain between the evenings.
EXODUS 12:6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim].
hERICtic writes:
If the meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th as you claim, it would be eight days unleavened bread, not seven.
Did you count the number of days in totat that i posted previously?
14th - 15th - 16th - 17th - 18th - 19th - 20th- 21st.
How many days does this make?
8? Yes.
The FOUB was said to run for 7 days. The scriptures say the festival was to begin on the 15th and end on the 21st. That is seven days yet when you actually count the number of days from the 14th, we have 8 days.
the conclusion is that the passover lamb was eaten on the 14th ( before the angel passed over the houses) as the scriptures say, then the 7 day FOUB was held after the 'Passover Lamb' was eaten on the 14th.
You keep saying it was eaten on the 15th, but i dont see how it could be.
They were to eat bread for seven days. Thats the celebration. Seven, not eight. We both know the scriputre, seven days. If you count from the ending of the 14th, beginning of the 15th you get seven days. Lamb slain on 14th, meal eate 15th in haste. God passes over. Jews leave the next morning.
Where does it state in the OT that they ate the lamb on the 14th?
I have stated late 14th early 15th bc there are a few ideas as to when the day ended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 8:06 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 98 of 107 (547318)
02-18-2010 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Peg
02-18-2010 3:52 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th. when the meal is eaten in the evening it is then the 15th.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Peg, posted 02-18-2010 3:52 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Peg, posted 02-18-2010 7:20 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 99 of 107 (547322)
02-18-2010 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by hERICtic
02-18-2010 5:41 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes:
EXODUS 12:6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim].
so you ignored the reference I made to the Kirtite jews and the Samaritans who believe 'between the two evenings' means the time between dusk and darkness...the time when as the sungoes down there is still an hour or so of light. If this was the time to eat the lamb, it means the lamb was eaten at sundown at the beginnign of the 14th. It also explains why the angel could passover the houses at midnight and the blood was already on the doorposts and it also explains how the lambs could be finished before the sunup.
Who's time frame is correct? As we dont know for sure, we cant be dogmatic about it. The Jews themselves are not in agreement about it.
hERICtic writes:
They were to eat bread for seven days. Thats the celebration. Seven, not eight. We both know the scriputre, seven days. If you count from the ending of the 14th, beginning of the 15th you get seven days. Lamb slain on 14th, meal eate 15th in haste. God passes over. Jews leave the next morning.
im going to say this for the last time as i've repeated it several times now
There are two celebrations.
The Passover Lamb is the first celebration - It was a 1 night celebration where the sacrificial lamb was eaten before the angel passed over. Exodus 12:6. It was eaten before they left egypt.
The Festival of UFB is the second celebration - It was a 7 day celebration from the 15th - 21st where only unfermented bread was to be eaten. Levit 23:6-11. This was after they left egypt to celebrate 'coming out of egypt'
They were two different celebrations for two different reasons.
That is why when you count from the 14th - 21st you actually get, not a 7 day celebration but a 8 day celebration.
They are two celebrations combined into one.

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 Message 97 by hERICtic, posted 02-18-2010 5:41 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 100 of 107 (547323)
02-18-2010 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by bluescat48
02-18-2010 6:36 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
bluescat48 writes:
The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th. when the meal is eaten in the evening it is then the 15th.
well thats what some jews say but they dont all agree so it could be the 15th or it could be the 14th.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by bluescat48, posted 02-18-2010 6:36 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by hERICtic, posted 02-19-2010 9:44 AM Peg has replied

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 101 of 107 (547385)
02-18-2010 9:18 PM


This thread is making me hungry.

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 102 of 107 (547419)
02-19-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Peg
02-18-2010 7:20 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
Sorry I didnt get back to you right away. Busy reading on this topic, from Christian and Jewish perspectives. I asked earlier, why the the 14th is called Passover if it was midnight the 15th, god passed over. It didnt seem to make much sense. Yet nearly every site I have read, states it was the 15th. Using this information, it makes perfect sense that the last meal was eaten towards the ending of the 14th, beginning 15th. Scripture backs this up IF it was midnight the 15th. But yet, the 14th is called Passover. So I can understand how some view midnight the 14th as when the angel of death passed over. With this belief, its understandable that the last meal was early in the day, as you believe. Yet every piece of scripture I read, it seems to be quite clear that between the evenings or evening, means the end of the day.
EXODUS 29:38 "And this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs daily, sons of a year; 39 the one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the second lamb you shall offer between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim]. 40 And a tenth of fine flour anointed with beaten oil, a fourth of a hin, and a drink offering, a fourth of a hin of wine, for the one lamb. 41 And you shall offer the second lamb between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim]; you shall do it like the morning food offering and its drink offering, for a soothing fragrance, a fire offering to Jehovah."
Do you agree or disagree that it refers to the end of the day?
I KINGS 18:26 So they took the bull which was given them, and they prepared it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even till noon, saying, "O Baal, hear us!" But there was no voice; no one answered. Then they leaped about the altar which they had made. 27 And so it was, at noon, that Elijah mocked them and said, "Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they cried aloud, and cut themselves, as was their custom, with knives and lances, until the blood gushed out on them. 29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.
Notice the evening sacrifice occurs past the afternoon.
It seems that this information clearly lays out the evidence to support when the lambs were slain. On the 14th, past noon.
Yet, still....I have yet to find a site which show why the 14th is called the Passover, when the available information points to midnight the 15th.
Perhaps you have an explanation? I can see your viewpoint though, but it seems to disagree with the terminology of what an "evening" is. Passvoer is the 14th, so it seems to point to midnight the 14th as the passing over.
As for my point regarding the 14th-21st. I agree with you, always have, that its an eight day celebration. Yet scripture states unleavened bread was eaten with the lamb. If that is the case, if it was eaten in the early 14th, that would make 8 days of unleavened bread, not seven. Thats the point I was trying to make. If the last meal was eaten early 15th, its seven days unleavened bread, as per the instructions.
In the synpotics though, its clear Jesus ate his last meal after the lambs were slain.
Do you agree or disagree with this point?
Edited by hERICtic, : To clarify a few points.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Peg, posted 02-18-2010 7:20 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 02-19-2010 6:09 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 103 of 107 (547487)
02-19-2010 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by hERICtic
02-19-2010 9:44 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes:
With this belief, its understandable that the last meal was early in the day, as you believe. Yet every piece of scripture I read, it seems to be quite clear that between the evenings or evening, means the end of the day.
the fact is that the term 'between the two evenings' is not 100% agreed upon by the jews themselves, so it cannot be stated one way or the other.
Really, the best evidence for when the possover was celebrated is found in the scriptures. If you look at Leviticus 23 you'll see it leaves no room for the passover to be celebrated on the 15th. It clearly states that passover was the 14th and it was to be followed on the 15th by the unfermented cakes.
Leviticus 23: 5In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah.
6‘And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes to Jehovah. Seven days YOU should eat unfermented cakes.
Another scripture which clearly shows when the passover was eaten is Deuteronomy 16:6 where it says 'as soon as the sun sets'. The sun set is the beginning of the new day.
But at the place that Jehovah your God will choose to have his name reside there, you should sacrifice the passover in the evening as soon as the sun sets
hERICtic writes:
EXODUS 29:38 "And this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs daily, sons of a year; 39 the one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the second lamb you shall offer between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim].
I agree that this means sundown or towards then end of the day... but you do realise that the day 'began' at sundown, not in the morning. Nor does anywhere in that whole chapter state that this ceremony was to be performed and completed on the same day. If it began in the morning and was still going at sundown (the beginning of the new day) then it was being performed over 2 days, not 1.
hERICtic writes:
I KINGS 18:29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.Notice the evening sacrifice occurs past the afternoon.
It seems that this information clearly lays out the evidence to support when the lambs were slain. On the 14th, past noon.
This scripture does no such thing for the reason that the evening sacrifice occured on a new day... not the same day. Remember; The new day began at sundown.
hERICtic writes:
Yet, still....I have yet to find a site which show why the 14th is called the Passover, when the available information points to midnight the 15th.
I can see that you are using your logic and you can see that something is not right.
The only information that tells us that passover was the 15th is non biblical. The only information that tells us that passover was the 14th is the bible.
The explaination is that the bible is correct and always has been. The new day began on the 14th...this was passover and it was between the two evenings (between sundown and twilight) that the lamb was eaten. A little later, the angel passed over the houses at midnight. In the morning they were set free and it was still the 14th.
when they got out of Egypt, for 7 days they celebrated their freedom with the Festival of unfermented bread. This bread is what they took out of egypt to eat upon their freedom. They did not have time to leaven their bread so they ate unfermented breads for 7 days and this celebration continues today.
hERICtic writes:
As for my point regarding the 14th-21st. I agree with you, always have, that its an eight day celebration. Yet scripture states unleavened bread was eaten with the lamb. If that is the case, if it was eaten in the early 14th, that would make 8 days of unleavened bread, not seven.
this is not an issue at all because the lamb was to be eaten with bitter herbs & unleavened bread, not because it was a part of the FOUB, but because it symbolized the perfect sacrifice that was to come. The passover celebration pre figured the sacrifice that the Messiah would make on behalf of mankind. Leaven symbolically represented imperfection and because the Messiah was Perfect, the bread had to be unleavend to represent his perfect body.
You my recall Jesus said "eat this bread, it represents my body which is to be given in your behalf" Luke 22:19.
I keep saying this point over and over, but i'll say it again, the passover festival was one celebration. The FOUB was something different. Both were celebrations for different reasons.
the Passover - The angel of Death passed over the houses, saving the lives of the isrealites
The FOUB - Deliverence from Egyption bondage, freedom.
hERICtic writes:
Thats the point I was trying to make. If the last meal was eaten early 15th, its seven days unleavened bread, as per the instructions.
In the synpotics though, its clear Jesus ate his last meal after the lambs were slain.
Do you agree or disagree with this point?
Of course he did. The gospels clearly state that Jesus ate the passover so the lambs must have been slain, cooked and eaten. Jesus did this with his diciples in the upper room and that was the last meal he ate. I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. Luke 22:15.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by hERICtic, posted 02-19-2010 9:44 AM hERICtic has replied

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 Message 104 by hERICtic, posted 02-19-2010 8:28 PM Peg has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 104 of 107 (547501)
02-19-2010 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Peg
02-19-2010 6:09 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes:
With this belief, its understandable that the last meal was early in the day, as you believe. Yet every piece of scripture I read, it seems to be quite clear that between the evenings or evening, means the end of the day.
Peg writes:
the fact is that the term 'between the two evenings' is not 100% agreed upon by the jews themselves, so it cannot be stated one way or the other.
We can use scripture.
Peg writes:
Really, the best evidence for when the possover was celebrated is found in the scriptures. If you look at Leviticus 23 you'll see it leaves no room for the passover to be celebrated on the 15th. It clearly states that passover was the 14th and it was to be followed on the 15th by the unfermented cakes.
Leviticus 23: 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah.
6 ‘And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes to Jehovah. Seven days YOU should eat unfermented cakes.
Hence why I always state the end of 14th, beginning of 15th. The meal can be eaten and carry unto the next day.
Peg writes:
Another scripture which clearly shows when the passover was eaten is Deuteronomy 16:6 where it says 'as soon as the sun sets'. The sun set is the beginning of the new day.
Actually, it does not say that.
6 but at the place which HaShem thy G-d shall choose to cause His name to dwell in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
Evening is the going down of the sun. The going down of the sun is not the beginning of the next day. When the sun IS down, ti begins. The sun starts to go down after noon. So this again, shows the end of the day. Remember, I've given scripture that clearly states the "eveving" is towards the end of the day.
hERICtic writes:
EXODUS 29:38 "And this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs daily, sons of a year; 39 the one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the second lamb you shall offer between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim].
Peg writes:
I agree that this means sundown or towards then end of the day... but you do realise that the day 'began' at sundown, not in the morning. Nor does anywhere in that whole chapter state that this ceremony was to be performed and completed on the same day. If it began in the morning and was still going at sundown (the beginning of the new day) then it was being performed over 2 days, not 1.
C'mon Peg. Its giving you the layout of the day. 2 lambs DAILY. It states the morning and the evening. If, as you claim, by "evening" refers to the next day, it would be one lamb.
Here is more scripture:
"The battle raged that day, and the king of Israel propped himself up in his chariot in front of the Arameans until the evening; and at sunset he died." 2 Chronicles 18:34
"And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remaineth unto this day." Joshua 8:29
Both state evening is the end of the day.
Even better: Leviticus 23:27 On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
So the tenth is the day of atonement.
Verse 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath
Evening again is the end of the day.
hERICtic writes:
I KINGS 18:29 And when midday was past, they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice. But there was no voice; no one answered, no one paid attention.
Notice the evening sacrifice occurs past the afternoon.
It seems that this information clearly lays out the evidence to support when the lambs were slain. On the 14th, past noon.
Peg writes:
This scripture does no such thing for the reason that the evening sacrifice occured on a new day... not the same day. Remember; The new day began at sundown.
Yes, the new day begins at sundown. But if you keep reading (would have helped if I included the rest of the scripture) it clearly states there was still light at evening. Therefore, the sun has not set, its still the same day.
I KINGS 18:41 Then Elijah said to Ahab, "Go up, eat and drink; for there is the sound of abundance of rain." 42 So Ahab went up to eat and drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; then he bowed down on the ground, and put his face between his knees, 43 and said to his servant, "Go up now, look toward the sea." So he went up and looked, and said, "There is nothing." And seven times he said, "Go again." 44 Then it came to pass the seventh time, that he said, "There is a cloud, as small as a man's hand, rising out of the sea!" So he said, "Go up, say to Ahab, 'Prepare your chariot, and go down before the rain stops you.'" 45 Now it happened in the meantime that the sky became black with clouds and wind, and there was a heavy rain. So Ahab rode away and went to Jezreel. 46 Then the hand of the LORD came upon Elijah; and he girded up his loins and ran ahead of Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.
The sky became black with clouds and wind. Not from lack of sun. This entire story points to evening being the end of the day.
hERICtic writes:
Yet, still....I have yet to find a site which show why the 14th is called the Passover, when the available information points to midnight the 15th.
Peg writes:
I can see that you are using your logic and you can see that something is not right.
The only information that tells us that passover was the 15th is non biblical. The only information that tells us that passover was the 14th is the bible.
I have always agreed that the 14th is Biblical. Im just not understanding why its called that. It just seems to make more sense based upon the evidence in the Bible that the 15th should be called the Passover.
Peg writes:
The explaination is that the bible is correct and always has been. The new day began on the 14th...this was passover and it was between the two evenings (between sundown and twilight) that the lamb was eaten. A little later, the angel passed over the houses at midnight. In the morning they were set free and it was still the 14th.
Which is not supported by scripture. Nowhere in the OT does it state this
hERICtic writes:
As for my point regarding the 14th-21st. I agree with you, always have, that its an eight day celebration. Yet scripture states unleavened bread was eaten with the lamb. If that is the case, if it was eaten in the early 14th, that would make 8 days of unleavened bread, not seven.
Peg writes:
this is not an issue at all because the lamb was to be eaten with bitter herbs & unleavened bread, not because it was a part of the FOUB, but because it symbolized the perfect sacrifice that was to come. The passover celebration pre figured the sacrifice that the Messiah would make on behalf of mankind. Leaven symbolically represented imperfection and because the Messiah was Perfect, the bread had to be unleavend to represent his perfect body.
You my recall Jesus said "eat this bread, it represents my body which is to be given in your behalf" Luke 22:19.
I keep saying this point over and over, but i'll say it again, the passover festival was one celebration. The FOUB was something different. Both were celebrations for different reasons.
the Passover - The angel of Death passed over the houses, saving the lives of the isrealites
The FOUB - Deliverence from Egyption bondage, freedom.
Basically, you're just saying that they did eat unleavened bread on all eight days, but the first day is called Passover and does not count.
Except you have a problem:
Exodus:
6 and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.
Ok, I'll ignore "dusk" here which states the end of the day...
7 And they shall take of the blood, and put it on the two side-posts and on the lintel, upon the houses wherein they shall eat it.
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Passover meal eaten with unleavened bread. You say this does not count as one of the seven days of unleavened bread. I disagree. Lets keep reading...
9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; its head with its legs and with the inwards thereof.
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; but that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
Remember, the Jews left in the morning (on the 15th)
11 And thus shall ye eat it: with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste--it is HaShem'S passover.
So we know this meal is considered the Passover meal.
12 For I will go through the land of Egypt in that night, and will smite all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am HaShem.
"that night" refers back to the same day as the meal is eaten.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and there shall no plague be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to HaShem; throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Ok, the day of the angel of death is considered a memorial. Remember, you state its the 14th at midnight, I say 15th.
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; howbeit the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses; for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
Verse 15 now states the first day of unleavened bread is the same day the angel of death passed over. It also states the Passover meal is part of this day. Refer back to verse 14, which states the day is a memorial, then verse 15 states its part of the seven days.
16 And in the first day there shall be to you a holy convocation, and in the seventh day a holy convocation; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you.
17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt; therefore shall ye observe this day throughout your generations by an ordinance for ever.
18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
So we know the first day of unleavened bread is celebrated on the day the Jews left Egypt, which was the 15th. We know the first day of unleavened bread is from the 14th to the 21st. We also know the Passover meal was eaten on the same day of the FOUB.
hERICtic writes:
In the synpotics though, its clear Jesus ate his last meal after the lambs were slain.
Do you agree or disagree with this point?
Peg writes:
Of course he did. The gospels clearly state that Jesus ate the passover so the lambs must have been slain, cooked and eaten. Jesus did this with his diciples in the upper room and that was the last meal he ate. I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. Luke 22:15.
Wait a second...
Your scenario: Lambs slain on early 14th. Lambs eaten that night, before morning. When evening arrives, its the next day, the 15th.
Luke states: Lambs slain. Preparations made, evening arrives when they sit down for the meal. That could only mean the end of the day, the beginning of the 15th they are eating their meal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 02-19-2010 6:09 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Peg, posted 02-19-2010 9:24 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 105 of 107 (547517)
02-19-2010 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by hERICtic
02-19-2010 8:28 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes:
Hence why I always state the end of 14th, beginning of 15th. The meal can be eaten and carry unto the next day.
you forget that the scriptures say that 'none of the passover meal is to be left over till the next morning'
Exodus 12:10 And YOU must not leave any of it over till morning, but what is left over of it till morning YOU should burn with fire
So this meal is not to be confused with the FOUB which began on the 15th.
hERICtic writes:
Evening is the going down of the sun. The going down of the sun is not the beginning of the next day. When the sun IS down, ti begins.
well as i've mentioned, the Kiraite jews and the Samaritans both beleive that that 'between the two evenings' is the time between when the sun is no longer visible on the horizon and darkness sets in.
here is the reference
Commentary on the Old Testament, 1973, Vol. I, The Second Book of Moses, p. 12 writes:
Different opinions have prevailed among the Jews from a very early date as to the precise time intended. Aben Ezra agrees with the Caraites and Samaritans in taking the first evening to be the time when the sun sinks below the horizon, and the second the time of total darkness; in which case, ‘between the two evenings’ would be from 6 o’clock to 7.20.... According to the rabbinical idea, the time when the sun began to descend, viz. from 3 to 5 o’clock, was the first evening, and sunset the second; so that ‘between the two evenings’ was from 3 to 6 o’clock. Modern expositors have very properly decided in favour of the view held by Aben Ezra and the custom adopted by the Caraites and Samaritans.
hERICtic writes:
C'mon Peg. Its giving you the layout of the day. 2 lambs DAILY. It states the morning and the evening. If, as you claim, by "evening" refers to the next day, it would be one lamb.
that very ceremony you are quoting from states that it was to run over 7 days... so how do you fit 2 lambs into 7 days if a lamb had to be offered at morniing and evening for 7 days? Im sure that would amount to 14 lambs.
hERICtic writes:
Yes, the new day begins at sundown. But if you keep reading (would have helped if I included the rest of the scripture) it clearly states there was still light at evening. Therefore, the sun has not set, its still the same day.
i think you will find that this is the point at issue...when exctly does the new day begin!
does it begin as soon as the sun begins to decsend after noon as you are suggesting?
or does it begin when it has completely dissapeared from the horizon and light is still in the sky?
or does it begin in the darkness of night???
I am taking the view that it begins when the sun has set on the horizon and there is still light in the sky...this is in harmony with my reference to the 'commentary on the Old Testament'
hERICtic writes:
Your scenario: Lambs slain on early 14th. Lambs eaten that night, before morning. When evening arrives, its the next day, the 15th.
Luke states: Lambs slain. Preparations made, evening arrives when they sit down for the meal. That could only mean the end of the day, the beginning of the 15th they are eating their meal.
No, it doesnt mean that at all. You may recall one of my earlier posts where i said the preparations were made on the 13th....then when the sun set on the horizon and the new day began, now the 14th, the celebration began and the lambs were eaten between the two evenings...while there was still light in the sky.
this has always been my position.
You keep saying that the evening meant that it was the 'end' of the day... its not. Its the beginning of the day.
Luke said that preparations were being made for the passover....he was speaking of the 13th. Then at sunset, they ate the meal in the upper room, this is now the beginnign of the 14th.
anyway, we've been going over and over this and im getting tired of repeating myself.
There is no problem with the account in the gospels and the timing of the passover. Jesus and the diciples at early in the evening on the 14th and not long before the following evening (on the same day) jesus was killed. he was killed on the passover day because he was buried before the sun had set (on the same day)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by hERICtic, posted 02-19-2010 8:28 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by hERICtic, posted 02-20-2010 12:05 PM Peg has not replied

  
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