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Author Topic:   The Flood, fossils, & the geologic evidence
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 211 of 377 (547630)
02-20-2010 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by solja247
02-20-2010 4:43 PM


Re: Evidence for the flood?
Hi again, solja247, getting a lot of traffic?
Thanks. I was reading some of your posts (Uranium halos) and you know a lot more science than I do.
Then you know that there is a lot of scientific evidence for an old earth as well, from a multitude of sources.
While it is possible to have evidence of younger testing samples of rock, etc in an old earth (recent volcanic rock for instance), it is not possible to have older rock in a young earth.
I said before, untill we know what kind stress the flood caused we dont know what it created. The Grand canyon could of been created by God and then after thousands of years change slightly to what we know of today as the Grand Canyon.
In other words, the evidence was changed to fool us, rather than lead us to truth? Once you have started down this path, then every bit of evidence that contradicts your beliefs is due to such lokian behavior of your god/s to hide the real evidence. Ultimately all evidence becomes faked to make the world appear different from what you need it to be. That's called delusion, not rational logical thinking.
We have to ask another question what sought of geological and hydrological events were happening?
Was there any massive underwater currents?
Was there a lot of erosion?
Was not much happening, just a large amount of rain?
Was there Earthquakes, tusanamis, hurricanes or relatively quiet?
You see, untill we know the exact conditions of the flood we really cant say what the evidence looks like or is.
If one were going on a strict biblical interpretation, then the only thing you could posit would be what is in the bible. This would tend to rule out mountain forming as part of the flood process, if my recollections are correct (I am no biblical scholar, so I leave that to others).
If you need to invent additional catastrophic events to explain the geological formations, then the issue of a flood becomes rather inconsequential doesn't it?
I said before, untill we know what kind stress the flood caused we dont know what it created.
Yet we can compare floods to floods, to see what kinds of forces are involved, and we can look at the ocean floor to see the stresses imposed by very deep water on the sediments and rocks and organisms that live at those depths. We do not see hill formation as a result in either process, to say nothing of mountains.
We can compare flood outflows to annual rain erosion patterns and we see that flood outflows consistently match the erosion patterns seen in the Channeled Scablands, and that the annual rain erosion patterns consistently match the Grand Canyon erosion patterns.
So you dont think things cahnge? Do you think the water level has been rising for millions of years, or due to global warming the water level is rising?
It is not change but the rate of change that is the problem for you. Consider an analogy: I fill a quart pot with water and let it sit at normal room temperature and document the evaporation of water from the pot. From the observed rate of evaporation I can calculate how long it would take for the pot to be dry. Then I can add energy to the system to make the water evaporate at a faster rate, and I can observe the amount of energy it takes to double the evaporation rate. Then I can figure how much is needed to make the water evaporate in 1/1millionth of the time, and see that this much energy not only vaporizes the water, but it melts the pot.
Any variable could change how much Mt Everst grew a year. Perhaps even 1000 years ago the tectonics under Everst had much more stress and were thus causing, the mountain to grow much more taller.
The Himalyas took millions of years to form according to the geological evidence, and compressing that into a few days means you have a lot of frictional waste energy to dissipate, yet somehow keep from affecting any of the evidence. We are back to a lokian god faking evidence to fool you.
Is evidence for a global flood finding marine life in places like Mount Everest.
Except that the evidence in different parts of the world is from different ages, does not correlate in any way with other areas, and is evidence of underwater life for thousands of years. This is not evidence of a biblical flood that lasted barely a year, iirc, in total span of time. Most of the marine life in such deposits would not have sufficient time to have developed even the beginning of rudimentary evidence of life, to say nothing of the contiguous generations upon generations of life forms that take multiple years to develop, so it cannot explain the evidence that exists. Or we are back to a lokian god faking evidence to fool you.
Yet, it is more logical to believe that massive frozen moons came crashing into Earth, causing what we know of today, as the ocean?
Which is not what science claims happened. See a more up-to-date article at:
Origin of water on Earth - Wikipedia
It appears that water was already a part of the composition of earth, during its formation.
How tall would Everst have to be for that to happen?
Not very tall. The problem is one of energy and heat as a waste product, especially as rock is not a good conductor of heat.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4661 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 212 of 377 (547641)
02-21-2010 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Coyote
02-20-2010 4:50 PM


Re: I am still waiting too, better not hold my breath though
Hint: dinosaur bones have never been found because dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago, leaving only fossils.
Ok I need a bit of clarification. Do you implying that because dinosaurs died 65 millions years ago all they could have left are fossils (ie bone wouldn't 'survive' all those years ??) ???

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 213 of 377 (547642)
02-21-2010 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by slevesque
02-21-2010 1:08 AM


Fossil Bone, Fossil Stone
Hi slevesque, I hope I can answer this one.
Do you implying that because dinosaurs died 65 millions years ago all they could have left are fossils (ie bone wouldn't 'survive' all those years ?
Basically, yes. Bone simply doesn't last that long. Maybe palaeontologists will find an exception to this rule, some bone preserved under exceptional circumstances, but as far as I know, all dinosaur bones are mineralised, i.e. the original material has literally turned into stone, or has been replaced with stone. Some fossils are simply casts of course, they contain nothing of the original organism, merely an imprint.
I do have one small quibble with what Coyote has said; not all fossils are mineralised. More recent fossils can be completely non-mineralised and are essentially the same in composition as they originally were. Bones and shells from more recent layers for instance. These can be considered fossils, but they are still bone or shell, not stone. Strictly, a fossil is any remain of a biological organism (or a trace of one) from 10 000 years ago or more.
Dinosaur bone though is too old. Those fossils are mineralised.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 214 of 377 (547656)
02-21-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Granny Magda
02-21-2010 2:19 AM


Re: Fossil Bone, Fossil Stone
Those fossils are mineralised.
Including, slevesque, the ones that Mary Schweitzer and group found the flexible remains of blood vessels in. See Soft tissue and cellular preservation in vertebrate skeletal elements from the Cretaceous to the present | Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences
Schweitzer calls it "bone" pretty much throughout, but she points out that the collagen is gone and the hard parts are "crystalline" - indicating that they aren't fibrous hydroxyapatite any more.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 215 of 377 (547665)
02-21-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Granny Magda
02-21-2010 2:19 AM


Re: Fossil Bone, Fossil Stone
Granny Magda writes:
Bone simply doesn't last that long. Maybe palaeontologists will find an exception to this rule...
It's not a rule, just unexpected and unlikely after the passage of so much time. This may have already happened, for example, as described in this 2007 National Geographic article: Dinosaur Soft Tissue Sequenced; Similar to Chicken Proteins. It was the topic of a couple threads here, with YEC's arguing that it meant dinosaurs actually died out only a few thousand years ago since biological material couldn't possibly survive buried for millions of years. Whether this finding of ancient dinosaur tissue has been replicated and verified I do not know.
--Percy

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 216 of 377 (547666)
02-21-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by slevesque
02-21-2010 1:08 AM


Re: I am still waiting too, better not hold my breath though
Ok I need a bit of clarification. Do you implying that because dinosaurs died 65 millions years ago all they could have left are fossils (ie bone wouldn't 'survive' all those years ??) ???
It would be rash to say that it's absolutely impossible that dinosaur bones could survive unmineralized. On the other hand, we can say that it would take a ludicrously rare combination of geological circumstances to bring it about --- because none have in fact been found.
(I've just been looking at creationist claims that they have been found. This seems to be based on a single absurd blunder --- see if you can spot it.)

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 217 of 377 (547667)
02-21-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Percy
02-21-2010 10:35 AM


Re: Fossil Bone, Fossil Stone
It's not a rule, just unexpected and unlikely after the passage of so much time. This may have already happened, for example, as described in this 2007 National Geographic article: Dinosaur Soft Tissue Sequenced; Similar to Chicken Proteins. It was the topic of a couple threads here, with YEC's arguing that it meant dinosaurs actually died out only a few thousand years ago since biological material couldn't possibly survive buried for millions of years. Whether this finding of ancient dinosaur tissue has been replicated and verified I do not know.
It has been replicated. However, the bones were mineralized and had to be subjected to an artificial process of "demineralization" in order to recover the tissues.
To quote Schweitzer et al:
Removal of the mineral phase reveals transparent, flexible, hollow blood vessels containing small round microstructures that can be expressed from the vessels into solution. Some regions of the demineralized bone matrix are highly fibrous, and the matrix possesses elasticity and resilience.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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solja247
Junior Member (Idle past 5169 days)
Posts: 7
Joined: 02-20-2010


Message 218 of 377 (547696)
02-21-2010 7:41 PM


I am not educated in science, yet. I start my Bachelor of Science next week. I need to do a lot more research before I get into debates with learned people. This is not me going, this is me saying, 'I'll be back'
Have fun.
Edited by solja247, : No reason given.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 219 of 377 (547701)
02-21-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by solja247
02-21-2010 7:41 PM


I am not educated in science, yet. I start my Bachelor of Science next week. I need to do a lot more research before I get into debates with learned people. This is not me going, this is me saying, 'I'll be back'
Excellent!
I wish you the best in your studies. Hurry back!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 220 of 377 (547705)
02-21-2010 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by solja247
02-21-2010 7:41 PM


Hi again solja247,
I am not educated in science, yet. I start my Bachelor of Science next week. I need to do a lot more research before I get into debates with learned people. This is not me going, this is me saying, 'I'll be back'
Have fun, and remember that the purpose of going to school is to learn.
If you have any questions, feel free to start a thread and ask - there are a lot of people here who will be happy to help.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2351 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 221 of 377 (547732)
02-22-2010 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by solja247
02-21-2010 7:41 PM


solja247 writes:
I start my Bachelor of Science next week.
I hope you won't take this question as being too personal: What school will you be going to?
(Actually, that question is almost certainly off-topic, which is bad enough. But if you're willing to let us know, please do. You might even get some useful feedback.)

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 222 of 377 (579021)
09-03-2010 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dr Adequate
02-21-2010 10:51 AM


Mary Schweitzer --- A Footnote
I just discovered that Schweitzer used to be, in her words, a "hard-core young earth creationist". She'd studied science, she got her teaching qualifications, and then one day she decided to audit a class in evolution ...
A few years later she was doing her PhD on dinosaur bones and found the first fossil red blood cells.
She's kept her religion, apart from the antiscientific bits. About YEC she now says:
When I talk to Christian groups or when I teach in my class, I explain that 'science is like football'. There is a set of rules and everybody follows the same rules. The young earth creationists play basketball on the same field. It's not pretty.
Obviously if her own discoveries proved that she'd spent most of her life being right, she'd have been the first to appreciate the fact.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 377 (619907)
06-13-2011 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calypsis4
10-07-2009 11:13 AM


Evidence of the entire geologic column?
Is there any evidence of the ENTIRE geological column being complete in atleast 2 different areas? And if not, how is it we come to the conclusion that we're just supposed to take the geologists word for it?
Is this thread still open for debate? Or shall I say was it already beat to death?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 224 of 377 (619908)
06-13-2011 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Chuck77
06-13-2011 7:34 AM


Re: Evidence of the entire geologic column?
Chuck77 writes:
Is there any evidence of the ENTIRE geological column being complete in atleast 2 different areas?
To the best of my knowledge there is nowhere on earth you can find the entire geological column, let alone two such places. What's more I would expect such a column to be evidence against the geological consensus position rather than evidence for it.
Why do you think that such a thing exists? Why do you think it needs to exist?
And if not, how is it we come to the conclusion that we're just supposed to take the geologists word for it?
You don't have to take their word for it. You can study the evidence and theory that leads to their conclusions, and test the predictions made.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 225 of 377 (619912)
06-13-2011 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Chuck77
06-13-2011 7:34 AM


Re: Evidence of the entire geologic column?
Is there any evidence of the ENTIRE geological column being complete in atleast 2 different areas?
This is a strange category error. The geological column is not a thing, it's a summary of knowledge. You might as well ask how many legs the periodic table has and how many people you can seat at it.
There are places in the world where there is sediment from every geological period, but that is not the geological column.
And if not, how is it we come to the conclusion that we're just supposed to take the geologists word for it?
Take their word for what?

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