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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4963 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 4 of 477 (547826)
02-23-2010 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by slevesque
02-23-2010 12:39 AM


Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Hi Slevesque
I have a general question about the biblical depiction of God. It's one I've asked before on this site but didn't get an answer.
If God is perfect, how did he make us imperfect (in his eyes) and why does that make him angry?
If God was perfect, he'd be happy all the time because he wouldn't make anything that was imperfect or, if he did, it could only have been deliberate. He would deliberately make everything exactly as he wanted.
He can't be both perfect and angry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by slevesque, posted 02-23-2010 12:39 AM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2010 1:12 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied
 Message 330 by dennis780, posted 05-12-2010 12:14 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has not replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4963 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 43 of 477 (547941)
02-24-2010 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
02-23-2010 1:12 PM


Hi Icant
Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
He [God] can't be both perfect and angry.
Icant replies:
Why can't God be perfect and get mad at what man does?
Because a perfect god would have made Adam and Eve such that they could only have perfect offspring (at least in his eyes).
A perfect god could only have made things exactly as he wanted. So, if he genuinely wanted humans to have freewill, he would be happy that humans behave in all different kinds of ways. What would be the point of giving us genuine freewill if we weren't to use it? On the other hand, if he wanted us to behave like robots, he'd have given us brains that ensured that was the case.
Instead he made us (or Adam & Eve - it amounts to the same thing if we're all descended from Adam & Eve) behave as we do.
The only one he should be angry with is himself. But that would still make him imperfect. If he is not infallible, then he doesn't automatically deserve respect for simply being what he is, which of course undermines the whole Christian dogma.
The Christian dogma simply does not make any sense. What a relief it is that there is not a shred of evidence that any of it is true anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2010 1:12 PM ICANT has not replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4963 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 46 of 477 (547956)
02-24-2010 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Stile
02-24-2010 8:51 AM


Re: Perfection... but of what?
Hi Stile
Is an all-knowing, omnipotent being "perfection"? I certainly don't think so. Wouldn't perfection include a certain amount of fun? How can you have fun if you already know what's going to happen all the time? You can never be surprised, you can never anticipate, you can never learn. That doesn't sound very fun. Therefore, omnipotence is not 'perfect' because there would be at least one thing I would miss.
Omnipotence may be perfection regarding the ability to do things. But it is not some general, undefined "perfection." Such a thing doesn't exist, because perfection is subjective.
I agree entirely with what you say, which I think supports the point that Hyroglyphx made that the Christian argument becomes circular and meaningless.
Because who is God to say that we are at fault?
In any case the reality is this. God is not saying anything. Some people are saying that God is perfect and that humans are not perfect and God is therefore angry with us. Those people also claim that God is perfect and made man in his image. So did God make man perfect (like him) or not? And if he didn't, then he could only have done so deliberately. If he didn't do so deliberately, he ain't perfect. Unless you see making certain mistakes as a sign of being perfect (like "having fun" as you mention), in which case who's to say humans aren't perfect in their imperfection?!?
Whichever way you look at it, the whole thing is total nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 02-24-2010 8:51 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Stile, posted 02-24-2010 10:02 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4963 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 49 of 477 (547964)
02-24-2010 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Stile
02-24-2010 10:02 AM


Re: Perfection... but of what?
So, how do we fight nonsense? - On a global scale?
Obviously through understanding, education and a will for "what's right."
But, as big as all those above "if's" are, this is equally as big of a "easy to say, hard to do" kind of thing.
So, what do we do?
Education is the key. The one thing most religions (certainly the ones that cause the most trouble) rely on is stifling knowledge. Who can say what is ultimately the best way, but the more options we have, the better.
But I guess we're wandering off topic. Care to start a new one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Stile, posted 02-24-2010 10:02 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

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