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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 31 of 477 (547911)
02-23-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
02-23-2010 1:18 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
A perfect man chose to disobey God?
Nah, it was Eve's fault. That bitch...

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-23-2010 1:18 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2010 9:42 PM Apothecus has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 32 of 477 (547913)
02-23-2010 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ZenMonkey
02-23-2010 3:57 PM


Re: Poisoning the well?
Hi, ZenMonkey.
ZenMonkey writes:
The vast majority of all the people who've ever lived, even if you really believe that the world is only thousands of years old, have never, ever, ever had a chance to hear the gospel and know about this free pardon. Either they were born before Christ, or they lived in a place that never received the Gospel until after they were dead. And yet, nothing in the Bible or any other authoritative Christian text that I know of says that these people were sinless or weren't part of "the family of the devil."
I can provide a partial answer to this, but it isn't accepted by mainstream Christianity. This is one of the main selling points of Mormonism: what you just said is almost a verbatim duplicate of the speech I gave many, many times as a missionary several years ago.
God gives people a second chance in the next life if they are not given a legitimate chance on Earth. This isn't really said directly in the Bible, but it is kind of mentioned peripherally in 1 Corinthians:
quote:
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
- 1 Cor. 15:29
It doesn't really say what "baptism for the dead" is, and there is literally no context provided in the chapter: it's just wedged in there between two apparently unrelated things.
However, I think it should be kind of easy to infer the meaning: what purpose would there be in being baptized for somebody who is dead? Obviously, you get baptized for somebody who is dead because they can't get baptized for themselves (they're dead).
Clearly, at least some early Christians believed that a person's chance for salvation did not end at death. Why no other Christians embrace this idea is a complete mystery to me.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-23-2010 3:57 PM ZenMonkey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 02-23-2010 10:00 PM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 42 by Granny Magda, posted 02-24-2010 4:11 AM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 57 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-24-2010 8:55 PM Blue Jay has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 33 of 477 (547914)
02-23-2010 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Apothecus
02-23-2010 9:16 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Hi, Apothecus.
Apothecus writes:
Dr Adequate writes:
A perfect man chose to disobey God?
Nah, it was Eve's fault. That bitch...
Okay, so, a perfect woman chose to disobey God?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Apothecus, posted 02-23-2010 9:16 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2010 9:59 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 37 by Apothecus, posted 02-23-2010 10:15 PM Blue Jay has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 34 of 477 (547915)
02-23-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Blue Jay
02-23-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Okay, so, a perfect woman chose to disobey God?
No. It was a bum rap. Being perfect Eve had no other choice than to perform according to her very reason for existence. She played her part just as the director ordered. It was a set up.. a subterfuge. She never saw it coming. Poor girl's been bearing the brunt of the director's faux wrath ever since.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2010 9:42 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 02-23-2010 10:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 39 by Apothecus, posted 02-23-2010 10:23 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 35 of 477 (547916)
02-23-2010 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Blue Jay
02-23-2010 9:37 PM


Re: Poisoning the well?
Bluejay writes:
Clearly, at least some early Christians believed that a person's chance for salvation did not end at death. Why no other Christians embrace this idea is a complete mystery to me.
You just reminded me of a sore memory from college. I was taking a literature class and we were reading Dante's Paradise Lost. For the essay, I made the argument that the people Dante encountered in the levels of hell continued to commit the sins they were put there for. During my one on one with the professor, he tore me to pieces about this very idea.
Anyway, the point is I think it's been universally accepted, not just by christians, that you can't continue to sin or find salvation after your death. Nothing you do matters after you die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2010 9:37 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Meldinoor, posted 02-23-2010 10:46 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 51 by Blue Jay, posted 02-24-2010 12:20 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-24-2010 1:20 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 36 of 477 (547917)
02-23-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
02-23-2010 9:59 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
This says a lot about the nature of man and woman. A woman by nature is suppose to be gullible and follow bad advice. How else do snake oil salesmen make their living? A man by nature is suppose to jump off a cliff along with the woman because he thinks with his *bleep*.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2010 9:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2010 10:19 PM Taz has not replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 37 of 477 (547920)
02-23-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Blue Jay
02-23-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Okay, so, a perfect woman chose to disobey God?
There you go.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2010 9:42 PM Blue Jay has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 38 of 477 (547921)
02-23-2010 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taz
02-23-2010 10:03 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
How else do snake oil salesmen make their living?
Well, since you asked ... it's the spin-off merchandising. The t-shirts, ball caps, those little plastic mama snakes curled up in their cardboard nests surrounded by those cute little baby snakelings. The oil is just the come-on. The real killing is in the spin-off.
As for the cliff? You might be right there. I was always partial to ribs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taz, posted 02-23-2010 10:03 PM Taz has not replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 39 of 477 (547923)
02-23-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AZPaul3
02-23-2010 9:59 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Hey AZ.
Poor girl's been bearing the brunt of the director's faux wrath ever since.
That's the saddest part of the whole thing. Think of all the cruelty, persecution and second class status afforded to women in all of recorded history. All from one little pomegranate.
There's one for you, Slevesque:
Why would god allow the millenia of women's punishment for the "Fall of Man", which was so obviously a scripted act?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AZPaul3, posted 02-23-2010 9:59 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 40 of 477 (547925)
02-23-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Hyroglyphx
02-23-2010 8:11 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Hi Hyroglyphx,
The question is interesting. But you'll have to define perfection before it can have any value. If truely you think perfection is totally subjective, then any question involving 'perfection' is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-23-2010 8:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 02-24-2010 8:51 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 48 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-24-2010 11:15 AM slevesque has not replied

Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4808 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 41 of 477 (547927)
02-23-2010 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taz
02-23-2010 10:00 PM


Re: Poisoning the well?
Taz writes:
we were reading Dante's Paradise Lost
Noooooooo! Taz, you will be condemned to the sixth circle of hell, heresy, for speaking blasphemy against Dante's Divine Comedy. Milton wrote Paradise Lost!
Repent!
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taz, posted 02-23-2010 10:00 PM Taz has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 42 of 477 (547940)
02-24-2010 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Blue Jay
02-23-2010 9:37 PM


Re: Poisoning the well?
Hi Bluejay,
what you just said is almost a verbatim duplicate of the speech I gave many, many times as a missionary several years ago.
Yeah, I've had a Mormon missionary give me that speech. Would you be amazed to hear that I didn't find it compelling?
God gives people a second chance in the next life if they are not given a legitimate chance on Earth.
Doesn't that rather make a mockery of your missionary work?
The way I see it, if I had actually died, only to find myself in the next life, being offered a chance to make good with God, I would be a whole lot more willing to take the idea of Mormonism on board. After all, I would have what I've been asking for all these years; some evidence that the whole thing is more than a delusion.
Here on Earth, the question of whether I believe Mormonism/Christianity (on the basis of no evidence) isn't even a dilemma. There is no way I can believe it.
In the honest-to-Gawd afterlife however, on being offered the chance to embrace God (now with ample evidence) I would naturally accept. It would be a no-brainer; anyone would accept.
My problem is this; surely by acting as a missionary, you are providing people with the chance to convert to Mormonism in life (on the basis of no evidence). Naturally most will refuse, thus forsaking their chance at being given the infinitely more appealing choice in the afterlife.
Basically, missionaries are offering salvation, but the net effect is damnation of most of the people they talk to. By offering people the chance to refuse God, you are denying them the safe bet in the afterlife. Surely it would be better to keep Mormonism and Christianity a secret. That way, no-one would know about it and no-one would be able to refuse it. Everyone would get the option to take the safe bet and no-one need be denied Heaven.
Even if denying God in this life doesn't remove the safe bet option in the afterlife, missionary work still makes no sense. Why bother? It seems like a waste of time. Why not just leave people be and they can convert when they die? That would leave Mormons free to actually do some real good with their missionary stint, like working for charities.
Just a thought.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Blue Jay, posted 02-23-2010 9:37 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Blue Jay, posted 02-24-2010 12:17 PM Granny Magda has replied

Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4941 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 43 of 477 (547941)
02-24-2010 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
02-23-2010 1:12 PM


Hi Icant
Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
He [God] can't be both perfect and angry.
Icant replies:
Why can't God be perfect and get mad at what man does?
Because a perfect god would have made Adam and Eve such that they could only have perfect offspring (at least in his eyes).
A perfect god could only have made things exactly as he wanted. So, if he genuinely wanted humans to have freewill, he would be happy that humans behave in all different kinds of ways. What would be the point of giving us genuine freewill if we weren't to use it? On the other hand, if he wanted us to behave like robots, he'd have given us brains that ensured that was the case.
Instead he made us (or Adam & Eve - it amounts to the same thing if we're all descended from Adam & Eve) behave as we do.
The only one he should be angry with is himself. But that would still make him imperfect. If he is not infallible, then he doesn't automatically deserve respect for simply being what he is, which of course undermines the whole Christian dogma.
The Christian dogma simply does not make any sense. What a relief it is that there is not a shred of evidence that any of it is true anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2010 1:12 PM ICANT has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 44 of 477 (547950)
02-24-2010 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
02-23-2010 11:38 AM


Re: Why I Do Not Worship Your God: A Summary
Dr Adequate writes:
However, it's hard to believe that Jesus was the Old Testament god, because Jesus was nice, and never committed genocide at all...
Do pigs count? Mark 5:13:
And the unclean spirits came out and entered the swine; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-23-2010 11:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-24-2010 1:07 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 45 of 477 (547954)
02-24-2010 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by slevesque
02-23-2010 10:31 PM


Perfection... but of what?
slevesque writes:
If truely you think perfection is totally subjective, then any question involving 'perfection' is irrelevant.
I agree.
For anyone else who actually thinks that 'perfection' is not subjective:
Perfection has to be about a certain feature. Perfection about that feature can (most of the time) be objective, but the choice of what feature needs to be 'perfect' is simply a subjective choice.
For example:
I can have a perfect square. But what does this mean?
Likely, I'm talking about a square with exactly 90 degree angles and exactly the same lengths of edges. But if this sqaure is 10", and I need a sqaure patch to cover my square hole that is 15", then my perfect sqaure doesn't fit at all, it's too small, it's useless.
How can a "perfect square" be useless for a job where I require a square?
Obviously, it's because "perfection" has to subjectively be about a certain feature.
The perfect square to cover my 15" square hole doesn't even require exactly 90 degree corners or exactly equal lengths of edges. All it needs to be is a roughly-square shape of 16" or so. That is the "perfect square" for this job.
Therefore, pefection can reasonably only be measured objectively after a subjective feature or purpose for that perfection is defined. This renders "perfection" to be a subjective idea.
With humans, it gets even worse. How can you define a "perfect" feature or purpose for all humans?
Are symmetrical facial features "perfection" in human aesthetics? It is for most of the population, but certainly not for all. So it's not 'perfect', then.
Is "being saved" or "knowing Jesus Christ as personal saviour" or something similar the "perfect" purpose for humans? It's a high priority for many people, but not even a majority of earth's population. The majority of earth's population wants to "be saved" by some other deity, or has no interest in such things at all. So it's not 'perfect' either, then.
Is an all-knowing, omnipotent being "perfection"? I certainly don't think so. Wouldn't perfection include a certain amount of fun? How can you have fun if you already know what's going to happen all the time? You can never be surprised, you can never anticipate, you can never learn. That doesn't sound very fun. Therefore, omnipotence is not 'perfect' because there would be at least one thing I would miss.
Omnipotence may be perfection regarding the ability to do things. But it is not some general, undefined "perfection." Such a thing doesn't exist, because perfection is subjective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by slevesque, posted 02-23-2010 10:31 PM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 02-24-2010 9:17 AM Stile has replied

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