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Author Topic:   PRATT Party and Free for All
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 9 of 126 (544694)
01-27-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tanypteryx
01-27-2010 9:47 PM


Due to a lack of gravity, Message 52 I don't think he will be able to support anything.
Without gravity things don't need supporting.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-27-2010 9:47 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-27-2010 10:32 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 89 of 126 (546806)
02-13-2010 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
02-13-2010 10:18 PM


Re: Dating dirt
After reading this the ole man's mind's been mentaly immersed in more musings.
After reading this the young man's mind's prone to agree with you. 'cept I didn't read it.
quote:
Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth except trees and junk and stuff.
If the Buz/Bible flood and preflood canopy hypothesis was correct, the low C14, high oxygen world where men lived centuries (and likely some animals such as dinos, etc) most likely the trees would have benefited by the ecosystem as well.
Trees don't like high levels of O2. It causes them to work harder to dump their waste O2. It also cause them to burst into flames, which Smoky for one thinks is somehow bad for them.
If this were the case tree ring continuity would not have been abruptly interrupted and the pre-flood trees being low 14C they would date older than indicated.
We have actual trees that span the gap, Buz. We can carbon date tree rings one at a time. It wouldn't go unnoticed if forests didn't seem to produce any rings for a few millennia. 4,348* 4,349 4,350 12,500 spit take.
*Carbon years.
AbE: And before I get corrected I know that we can't carbon date a ring to the year 4,348. But 150's all over tarnation wouldn't be pretty, now would it?
Edited by lyx2no, : Fix my prose and add a note.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 02-13-2010 10:18 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 02-15-2010 11:45 AM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 100 of 126 (547013)
02-15-2010 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Buzsaw
02-15-2010 11:45 AM


Re: Dating dirt
Perhaps what I should have said is that the eco-system balance in the canopy which would have been so perfect for both animals and plants would become the condensed water which fell and covered the trees. Thus (perhaps) the best possible balance relative to the properties of the water covering the trees would have in the flood for survival of the trees so that the growth rings would show a continuous progression.
Perhaps. Perhaps bunnies had wings so that they could forage from the canopy, and weasels had turbine hearts that ran on swamp gas. Wouldn't that be fun. I'll show you twice as much evidence of turbine weasels that you show me for the flood.
I'm very sorry 2 put you 2 the trouble, lyx2, but would you mind xplaining 2 dumb laypeople who lyx 2 no what you said means?
No trouble unless you just intend for me to type a lot for you to disregard; otherwise, I owe it to you to explain myself.
My position is that if many of the trees survived the flood there would be no gaps and Carbon dating would show older dates than tests would indicate.
One of the major problems with many of your positions is that they don't even pay attention to their own implications.
As a tree grows it adds living layers just under the bark while wood farther in dies. The living rings accumulate carbon equal the the amount present in the biosphere: about 1ppt. The dead layers do not continue to sequester 14C. In other words, those rings carbon dating clocks have started. Regardless of the original amount of sequestered 14C it halves in 5,730 years. Assuming a constant starting value of 14Co we can date each ring as N-8276ln(14Co/14Cs)ya, where 14Csis the sample value and N=now (2010). There are uncertainties and corrections but those can be ignored as they don't significantly affect the outcome of this argument.
A 1000 year old tree will have its last clock start 1000 years after its first clock.
Let us now say the flood happened 4,350 years ago, and that a tree that grew before the flood would have lived in a biosphere much lower in 14C then we would expect and consequently date older. For sake of argument say our tree sprouted 4,400ya by ring count dates to 10,000ya by carbon dating. We, therefore, think we erred by 5,600 years. Looking into it further, ring from our tree for 4,351ya by ring count would carbon date to 9,951ya. But after the flood when the atmospheric 14C was basically what it is now, a ring from 4,349ya by count would have an age of 4,349ya by carbon rather then 9,949ya. Where are the interim 5,600 years?
A severe change in the level of 14Co would not go unnoticed.
Further, consider this important factor relative to the unique Buzsaw Hypothesis.
You can not dignify your collection of ad hoc statements as an hypothesis, Buz.
If you recall, my position is that since there was allegedly no Solar System until after plant life (including trees) were created (day 3).
This isn't even English, Buz.
Consider also that having no Solar System, no sun and moon to determine length of days.
That either.
Thus, all we would know is that the trees were older (perhaps significantly) than birds, fishes, animals and humans.
You've skipped two contentions and went right for the conclusion.
Interestingly, the record does not mention insects. The implication is that they were created along with the plants since they would serve in the ecology of plant propagation.
And straight into a non-sequitur.
Further yet, I see RAZD, in his latest dendrocronolical science thread, emphasised the corroboration factor relative to dating. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. I harp on corroboration incessantly, yet nobody pays any attention to the fact that there are numerous corroborating factors relative to the veracity of the Biblical record.
Nobody pays any attention to your supposed corroborating factors because they are imaginary or trivial. The Bible's claim that Moses was floated in the river Nile is not corroborated by water running down hill.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Buzsaw, posted 02-15-2010 11:45 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 02-15-2010 10:41 PM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 108 of 126 (547058)
02-16-2010 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Buzsaw
02-15-2010 10:41 PM


A Moment of Silence
Before I address your post allow me a short prayer: Thank God this is in Free For All. Amen
So long as by disregard you mean disbelieve
No, by disregard I mean disregard. You're entirely free to disbelieve me without wasting my time. I'm not a clergyman either. If you tell me the Queen is 206. And I point out that she's wearing a shash that says "Born in 1926"; and your next statement is "She'll be 207 in April." That's disregarding. If you say "You're full of it. I read it in the papers this morning. The Queen was born in 1804." That's disbelieving (and with a better retort then you usually offer.)
The change would not be sudden and noticeable:
This is one of the ad hoc statements you consistently supply and present as Buzsaw Hypothesis. Where does this come from? Going to my example where 5,600 needed to be accounted for; 5,600 years could not be gradually made up for in 4,350 years. So, in your "hypothesis" how much older do the trees carbon date to that we need to account for? And if it's a number so small that we can hide it in 4,350 years of calibration curve what does advancing such a minimal discrepancy gain you?
1) As I have noted, likely, many of them would have survived the flood for the reasons I've stated. 3) Many pre-flood trees likely lived for several thousand years after the flood, especially given that the current oldest tree (redwood) is over 4000 years old.
Fine, there are trees that survived. From my point of view all of them survived. Almost as if the flood never happened. So we're in agreement.
2) The level of 14C in the biosphere would gradually increase downline from the time of the flood.
Why? What demonstrable evidence do you have for this?
It's in the English translation of the Bible. Whether you choose to ascribe to it is another matter.
The non-sentence "If you recall, my position is that since there was allegedly no Solar System until after plant life (including trees) were created (day 3)." is in the English translation of the Bible? Would you mind telling me where? See that word "since" It requires a predicate. Since x, y. You neglected to state y. Since no solar system before trees what? Oh! you mean the point you didn't get round to making is in the Bible.
Ditto in your next non-sentence "Consider also that having no Solar System, no sun and moon to determine length of days." There are parts missing. I never know what you're going to come out with next so I'm at a loss to fill in your blanks.
I can ascribe to neither as they lack meaning.
If you ignored my two contentions, how can you debunk my conclusions?
You never got around to completing the contention. You made a wordy version of "Well, because" I surely can't debunk something you didn't get round to.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 02-15-2010 10:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 112 of 126 (547901)
02-23-2010 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Buzsaw
02-15-2010 10:41 PM


Bump for Buzsaw
Hi Buz
Have you found the evidence for these two statements yet?
quote:
The change would not be sudden and noticeable:
2) The level of 14C in the biosphere would gradually increase downline from the time of the flood.
  • What was the concentration of 14C the day before the flood?
  • At what rate did the 14C concentrations in the atmosphere change?
  • What would be the maximum rate at which 14C concentrations in the atmosphere could change to go unnoticed?
  • How did the trees not record a different number of years between the 14C dating and the annual growth rings?
I'm depending on you to answer these questions for me. My glaring ignorance is causing members of my family are developing pterygium*. I swear, my mum is almost a bat.
*I glare in the UVB.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 02-15-2010 10:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Apothecus, posted 02-23-2010 9:35 PM lyx2no has replied
 Message 115 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2010 10:47 PM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 117 of 126 (547930)
02-23-2010 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Apothecus
02-23-2010 9:35 PM


Re: Bump for Buzsaw
He also has to explain how those trees lived through that massive deluge.
Buzsaw explained in an earlier post that trees would benefit from a low 14C, high O2, low NaCl (The sodium presumably. He didn't mention cholesterol - C27H45OH.) "ecosystem" making the trees hardy enough to survive. I responded to this that trees don't like high O2 and he rescinded the high O2 being good for trees, but this did not effect his position about the trees being made more hardy by the "ecosystem".
It must be nice to have an argument so firmly based in reality that it is completely unaffected by having all the evidence for it invalidated.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Apothecus, posted 02-23-2010 9:35 PM Apothecus has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 119 of 126 (547932)
02-23-2010 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Buzsaw
02-23-2010 10:47 PM


Re: Bump for Buzsaw
but, unless I can say something I consider sensible I am mum
You need to reconsider what you consider sensible; and if you're Mum where's my allowance?
I suggest you look the whole page over and go at countering specific problems you may see in it.
That's not how it works Buz. Firstly, you didn't even send me to the page you took the quote from. I shouldn't have to go looking for your quotes. Secondly, it is not mine to argue against a web site. Thirdly, did you look over the site yourself. Not to conspiracy nut on you, Buz, but did you notice that the page you quote was in a different font then the rest of the site. I've got a sneaking suspicion that the fundamentalist who snuck it in got his Jesus points up front.
Don't use an argument you can't understand. It called lying.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2010 10:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 02-24-2010 12:19 AM lyx2no has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 126 of 126 (547989)
02-24-2010 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Buzsaw
02-24-2010 12:19 AM


Re: Bump for Buzsaw
I suggest you look the whole page over and go at countering specific problems you may see in it.
Suggest away. That's not how a debate works. If the fundamentalist who wrote that wishes to show up and debate it, fine, but I'm not going to debate something you don't even bother to fact check. The paragraphs you quoted were garbage. It has been explained to you at length more then once exactly why it is garbage. Coyote has just explained again exactly why it is garbage. Could you at least do the honorable thing and explain to Coyote why he's having his peculiar delusion of accuracy for radiocarbon dating. Maybe give the poor man's family a momentary brake from his constant, domestic 14C rants.
You say you're trying to learn. What is it you're trying to learn, Buz: How to be impervious to facts?
Say what, bud?
It's working for me today. Last night I was being redirected to a google page suggesting individual NDT essays. How long does it take you to find these misstatement hidden away in obscure sources? Why would you go to a tertiary source for your information when there are easily located, reputable, primary and secondary sources? Hope you slept well.
(Buz a liar? Et tu Brute'? Why is it that everyone makes mistakes but Buz never makes mistakes? Buz always lies? That's been bugging me here for 7 years now. )
I'm afraid you keep earning it for yourself, Buz. We all make mistakes. You more then most. But using arguments you know or should know to be false and only don't to an ascendant chorus of Fa-la-la's is lying.
Edited by lyx2no, : Punc.

You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Buzsaw, posted 02-24-2010 12:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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