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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 477 (548402)
02-27-2010 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Pauline
02-27-2010 11:47 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Welcome, Dr. Sing, to EvC
When you ask this, do you mean that being perfect Adam should not have had the ability/or desire to sin? Well, did Adam have the same kind of perfection as God? The God of the Bible is perfect in a completely different sense than Adam was before he sinned.
It is of little use to attempt to define your version of perfection because it is subjective. Perfection is a concept, like infinity. We don't actually know what that looks like.
Yet here we are trying to delineate between varying versions of perfection.... Isn't that contradictory? You are either perfect or imperfect. How could there be varying degrees of perfection if you cannot get more perfect than perfection? That's like saying there are varying degrees of receiving a perfect 100% on a test. It's either perfect or it isn't.
What do you infer? That Adam's "perfectness" cannot be compared to God's "perfectness". In other words, Adam while being a perfect human i.e created in God's image and never having sinned before, still had the choice to sin; freewill to make a choice. In that sense yes, Adam was IMperfect if you define "perfectness" as God's own perfectness.
The bottom line is that at any time God could have made the universe and man any way he wanted. Do you agree with that statement? That he chose to create sin and create in man a desire for sin, he is directly responsible for the outcome. Not much of a choice, now is it? That;s like saying we have the choice whether to eat or not. Technically we do have a choice, except the desire to eat is so strong that no one could follow through, and even supposing they did it would result in a slow, painful death. So it is with sin, and that is not man's fault.
something God forbade him to be, and willfully made a wrong choice disobey God and obey God's enemy. Did Adam know that "the serpent" was God's enemy? I don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us.
No, he could not have known, according to the bible itself. It stands to reason that Adam or Eve could not understand that it was wrong to disobey God BEFORE they ate of the fruit, no?
How could they know it is wrong to eat the fruit if by eating the fruit is the only way to know what is good and what is evil?
Are you beginning to see the circular logic?
Did God not give the instruction BEFORE they ate of it?
Worse than that, he entrapped them with created the tree to begin with. What purpose does it serve God to create this tree in the first place unless his real motivation is so that they would eat from it? Are you telling me that God in all his infinite wisdom could not have forgone the tree?
Are you telling me that God had to create a Serpent that would beguile them? Come on. Stop placing all the blame on man when it is God, according to his own word, facilitated their undoing totally and completely.
He did it on purpose so that man would fail.
It's a set-up, a rouse, a sham... God not only created us with the desire to sin, he punished ALL of mankind for something that Adam and Eve had no real choice in.
Is this your conception of perfection?
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 11:47 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 4:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 62 of 477 (548437)
02-27-2010 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2010 12:48 PM


Welcome, Dr. Sing, to EvC
Hi. Pleased to meet you.
How could there be varying degrees of perfection if you cannot get more perfect than perfection?
2 Samuel 22:30-32 (New International Version)
30 With your help I can advance against a troop [a] ;
with my God I can scale a wall.
31 "As for God, his way is perfect;
the word of the LORD is flawless.
He is a shield
for all who take refuge in him.
32 For who is God besides the LORD ?
And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Sam 22 is actually a song David sings after he defeats his enemies (King Saul) in war. According to the Bible, David was a extremely powerful and skilled warrior. He killed a giant with a stone when David was only 17. Goliath had been learning war since his youth whereas David was only a youth. David kills Goliath with just one. single. stone. THATS some skill. Tell me, why is David giving glory to God when he actually is such a tremendous warrior. He's the one who fought the battle. Yet he says "with your help, I advanced". David is putting himself below God, so to speak. I did the same thing. I put human perfection below God's perfection. Just as David puts his skills below God's skills.
What good is a deity if he is comparable to his creation? If his creation can identify with him? I mean, one has to be lesser than the other. if not, both are God, or both are human. If I make no distinction between human perfectness and God perfectness, then there is no God or human, both are either human or God. Now, lets put God completely aside. Lets compare you and me. Both of us are human. Talk about a common definition of perfection for Hyro and Dr. Sing, I have no problem. But you have to change definitions when you talking two completely discrete, distinct leagues.
he chose to create sin and create in man a desire for sin, he is directly responsible for the outcome.
False. Pathetic syntax. What do you mean by God "created" sin? What did he have in mind when He did it? He had His glory and fellowship in mind when He did Adam. He may have had beauty and diversity in mind when He did parrots, power when He did lions, serenity when He did swans (well, for the most part swans are quiet, I heard they can get nasty if you irk them ).
You see, God never forced lucifer or Adam to sin. He doesn't make you sin. You sin. Period. Now, before He created the universe (before there was time as we know it), did He know that Adam would sin? You bet He did. Did His knowledge stop Him from creating the universe? No. God created the universe primarily for His satisfaction. If one of His creatures spoils it, who's to blame? The Creature, right? If the creation had no freewill, had no choice...and was forced to sin, then you can say sin was created by God. But both lucifer and Adam had freewill.
You organized a party and invited a bunch of kids. You bring all the fun things in the world for them to enjoy. You're having a blast as well. You invited kid X to the party. You know he's a notorious kid. Yet you invited him because you like him. While other kids are playing, he takes a knife and cuts his hand even after you warned the kids not to do so. Man, I hate you!!! You should never have organized the party in the first place! YOU are the cause for the kid's bleeding hand. You're evil. Your party is evil. You're a sham, a rouse, the party was a premeditated evil set-up for destruction. Makes sense? No. Does what you said about God creating sin make sense? You tell me.
It stands to reason that Adam or Eve could not understand that it was wrong to disobey God BEFORE they ate of the fruit, no?
How could they know it is wrong to eat the fruit if by eating the fruit is the only way to know what is good and what is evil?
I said that Adam could have known that satan was God's enemy. As clear as that.
Now, one could raise the question "well, how could poor Adam and Eve have possibly known whom to trust between God and satan?"
Gen 1:
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundeverything that has the breath of life in itI give every green plant for food." And it was so.
God makes man. God makes him master over the rest of creation. God blesses man. God fellowships with man. Man is living in utopia!--thanks to God. And now man is approached by some new guy who says rubbish...tell me, is it really that hard for man to know whom to trust? I don't think so. The problem with Adam and Eve was that they were greedy, greedy for something beyond what they have. Greedy to be like God.
What purpose does it serve God to create this tree in the first place unless his real motivation is so that they would eat from it? Are you telling me that God in all his infinite wisdom could not have forgone the tree?
Time and again and like typical atheists you keep saying that God is the author of sin and man had no choice except to comply to God's "forcing him to sin". You know, the more you guys say this, the more you distance yourself from the answer to your very question. And if you want to ask me a question and then withdraw mentally, how is my answer going to satisfy you?Keep your claims to yourself, or go write a paper, send it for peer review, publish it, get a phD, make merry, and get on with life- or if your a evolutionist--get on with your mutations, get selected naturally, evolve...junk. Whats your point? Are you asking me what the Bible says about who introduced sin into this world or telling me that God introduced it? Seems to me you're doing the latter. Well, I never asked you in the first place.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : removed somethings because I wish I said them differently

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2010 12:48 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-27-2010 5:27 PM Pauline has not replied
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2010 5:57 PM Pauline has replied
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-27-2010 6:50 PM Pauline has replied

ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 63 of 477 (548442)
02-27-2010 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Pauline
02-27-2010 4:34 PM


Sounds like God wants all of the credit and none of the blame.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 4:34 PM Pauline has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 477 (548446)
02-27-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Pauline
02-27-2010 4:34 PM


David kills Goliath with just one. single. stone. THATS some skill. Tell me, why is David giving glory to God when he actually is such a tremendous warrior. He's the one who fought the battle. Yet he says "with your help, I advanced". David is putting himself below God, so to speak. I did the same thing. I put human perfection below God's perfection. Just as David puts his skills below God's skills.
What does David, easily one of the most imperfect characters of the bible, have to do with Adam and God being perfect?
If I make no distinction between human perfectness and God perfectness, then there is no God or human, both are either human or God.
Define "human perfection." To be perfect means to be without error or defect, yet David in the Psalms said that none are righteous, which is why we need Jesus in the first place. If we are all sinners then how does that relate to perfection?
quote:
he chose to create sin and create in man a desire for sin, he is directly responsible for the outcome.
False. Pathetic syntax. What do you mean by God "created" sin?
Well, let's examine that: If God is the Creator of EVERYTHING, it stands to reason that he created sin. How could you say otherwise? The bible even corroborates this:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:6-7
At least answer this simple question: If God created Adam "perfect," then how was he able to sin?
You see, God never forced lucifer or Adam to sin. He doesn't make you sin. You sin. Period.
God created everything and made everything according to his purpose, would you agree? He gave mankind his instincts and his desires, did he not? He is therefore directly responsible for the disposition of that which is created. How could it be any other way?
While other kids are playing, he takes a knife and cuts his hand even after you warned the kids not to do so. Man, I hate you!!! You should never have organized the party in the first place! YOU are the cause for the kid's bleeding hand. You're evil. Your party is evil. You're a sham, a rouse, the party was a premeditated evil set-up for destruction. Makes sense?
You're forgetting one convenient detail. God created EVERYTHING, including mankind. I didn't create kids with knives, I didn't give them a desire to use knives, God did ALL of that. Any worldly analogy will fail for the simple fact that God is the creator of all and therefore has complete and total control over everything. We don't have that luxury.
quote:
How could they know it is wrong to eat the fruit if by eating the fruit is the only way to know what is good and what is evil?
I said that Adam could have known that satan was God's enemy.
Even IF that were the case (which no one knows), who put Satan there to begin with?!?!
Yes, before Adam ate the forbidden fruit he did not know what is right or wrong, obedience and disobedience. However, he did know the difference between "do" and "don't do".
Which is totally USELESS if you don't understand what wrong is and have no concept of consequence. The simple illustration in Genesis is that mankind was created with innocence. God seemingly wanted to protect man from ever having to know what good and evil is. The problem is, he created the tree in their midsts, provided a serpent to trick them (even knowing their innocence), and gave them the desire to be inquisitive enough to eat the fruit.
What then was their crime that ALL of mankind now gets to die?
Notice, NEVER ONCE DID I SAY THAT ADAM KNEW HE WAS DOING WRONG. Adam did NOT know that to eat the fruit was WRONG and not eat it was "RIGHT" because he did not have the knowledge of good and evil. You need not have the knowledge of good and evil to make a mistake.
Exactly my point! And yet, what happened as a result? He would now die as a result of him innocently being tricked by the Serpent which God allowed.
FACT:
1. God dangled the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in their face. Was it really necessary to even create it? No, unless the whole purpose of the tree was a set-up to prove to man that they need God. Either way, God then is to blame.
2. God told them not to eat it, but they could not have known it was wrong to do so until after-the-fact, which therefore makes it useless to tell them not to do it. It's like blaming a dog for pissing in the house when you only tell it not to one time. They don't understand, so giving them unreasonable demands and holding them accountable for their ignorance is unfair.
3. God placed the Serpent in the garden and gave him unmitigated access to Adam & Eve.
God at any time did not have to do any of those things. But he didn't. Since he didn;t, and since he's perfect, it stands to reason there is a very good reason why he purposely set man up for the Fall.
Man is living in utopia!--thanks to God. And now man is approached by some new guy who says rubbish...tell me, is it really that hard for man to know whom to trust? I don't think so. The problem with Adam and Eve was that they were greedy, greedy for something beyond what they have. Greedy to be like God.
First of all, the whole story is nonsense from start to finish and is about as believable as the 3 Blind Mice. But for now we'll just view the story for its own merits.
Yes, God provided utopia and then took it away after setting up the Fall. And if they were greedy, then who's to blame for that, Dr. Sing? Did Adam and Eve create themselves? Who imparted their desires? Seems to me, that would be God.
Time and again and like typical atheists you keep saying that God is the author of sin and man had no choice except to comply to God's "forcing him to sin". You know, the more you guys say this, the more you distance yourself from the answer to your very question.
I'm not an atheist, Dr. Sing.
And if you want to ask me a question and then withdraw mentally, how is my answer going to satisfy you?
Listen, I was a devout Christian who toiled with these questions and made excuses for God. When you really start examining the bible, there are many inconsistencies and contradictions that make it difficult to swallow. I am willing to listen to what you have to say, but your answers simply don't get at the heart of the matter. It's not your fault. It's an indefensible position unless you can come to grips with the notion that God set it up for a reason. Perhaps he has benevolent intentions, but as per the story this is his doing.
OR you need to come to grips with the notion that maybe the story is simply an allegory and was never intended to be taken literally and was meant to illustrate the futility of going against God's commands.
Keep your claims to yourself, or go write a paper, send it for peer review, publish it, get a phD, make merry, and get on with life- or if your a evolutionist--get on with your mutations, get selected naturally, evolve...junk. Whats your point?
The purpose of this forum, like all forums, is to discuss and debate various topics. If your faith is weak, you have the option to leave. We're having a discussion. If you cannot do that without resorting to ad hominem and a string of non-sequitors, then perhaps you don't belong here.
My advice to you is to develop some thick skin and take it all in stride while at EvC or you'll never survive this place.
Are you asking me what the Bible says about who introduced sin into this world or telling me that God introduced it?
I'm asking you to look at the obvious here. If you read the story in the context that it was written, it should be obvious that there is no other option.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 4:34 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 6:36 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 66 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 6:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 65 of 477 (548456)
02-27-2010 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2010 5:57 PM


Human perfection is total purity. Purity of mind, actions, words. The result of purity is benevolence. Any hint of impurity will render a human imperfect.
Freewill cannot be pure or impure (only desires can). Freewill is simply an innate God-given ability. I have the ability to run. My running cannot be qualified as pure or impure. Only my innate abstract "qualities" can. like my thoughts, intentions, desires. Adam could have chosen to have pure desires. But he chose to entertain a impure desire made known to him by satan, namely: i want to be like god. So here in my mind I see three tiers:
desires
Freewill
actions
Desires govern freewill, freewill directs actions. Satan offers Adam a enticing experience, all Adam needs to do is obey satan. The desire to sin never originated in Adam's heart. In that sense Adam was perfect human, he had a pure heart. Once Adam was exposed to a evil desire, he directed his actions to fulfill it through his freewill. Adam was at a two road fork when satan (through eve) finished speaking. He chose the wrong road. What Adam messed up was not HIS desires, but his FREEWILL. Therefore, his actions.
"I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." -- Isaiah 45:6-7
Isaiah 45 (New International Version)
Isaiah 45
1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.
9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
'What are you making?'
Does your work say,
'He has no hands'?
10 Woe to him who says to his father,
'What have you begotten?'
or to his mother,
'What have you brought to birth?'
11 "This is what the LORD says
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
12 It is I who made the earth
and created mankind upon it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts.
Please don't misconstrue the verse one more time. I'll not give you another chance to. God's point in the chapter is that He will make Cyrus a great man, basically give him all he wants, and everything that a king could possibly dream of. The point is: God is throwing all the "blessings" at Cyrus's face. Cyrus isn't "earning" anything from God. People will look at Cyrus and think what a prosperous, victorious king! But those who know Jehovah God will know that all that Cyrus ever had came from God's hand. That's the point of the chapter.
Actually, here the word for evil is better understood as "disaster'. Things like tsunamis and earthquakes. Yeah, of course, God creates them. But He doesn't create sin.
Even IF that were the case (which no one knows), who put Satan there to begin with?!?!
Lucifer was God's highest angel. He sinned. God could have destroyed lucifer then. and there. Why did God not do that? I do not know. I am studying the bible and am very little equipped with understanding. Hopefully, one day you will ask me the same question and I will give you a Biblical answer. Till then, suffice to say that God does what he wants but what He wants never hurts others.
The problem is, he created the tree in their midsts, provided a serpent to trick them (even knowing their innocence), and gave them the desire to be inquisitive enough to eat the fruit.
What then was their crime that ALL of mankind now gets to die?
hmm. did you want to live in a world where satan's entry was restricted? well, go find another galaxy......I guess.
See, my intention is not to escape the discussion. I absolutely get turned off, turned off, turned offfffffff, tuuuuuuuurrrrrrnnnned off, when people think the forbidden tree and satan should not have been allowed into God's own garden. Man! it was a tree! IF not in a garden, where else should it have been??????? If anything, man is unfit to live in open gardens. Satan.....remember what I said about the devil.....before he fell, he was the most powerful angel! Angels are powerful, to say the least. Once he fell, fine he became God's enemy but did he lose his power? No!! Of course satan roamed places other than the garden of eden, maybe he went to the gates of heaven once in a while to see what was going on. Whats your problem??
I'm not an atheist, Dr. Sing.
what are you?
Whats the heart of the matter? I want to address it. You seem to be bothered by many things here. What one thing should I address?
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2010 5:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2010 9:27 PM Pauline has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 66 of 477 (548458)
02-27-2010 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2010 5:57 PM


My advice to you is to develop some thick skin and take it all in stride while at EvC or you'll never survive this place.
Thank you for you advice. I've noticed a air of hatred towards supernaturalism on these forums.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2010 5:57 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 6:48 PM Pauline has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 67 of 477 (548459)
02-27-2010 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Pauline
02-27-2010 6:46 PM


Dr.Sing writes:
I've noticed a air of hatred towards supernaturalism on these forums. It is quite unpleasant actually.
My hatred towards supernaturalism is along the same line as my hatred of pink unicorns and goblins. I do have the right to hate the non-existent, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 6:46 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 7:01 PM Taz has replied
 Message 77 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2010 9:28 PM Taz has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 68 of 477 (548460)
02-27-2010 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Pauline
02-27-2010 4:34 PM


Reckless Endangerment
If I leave a small child alone with a gun and a psychopath who likes to encourage children to play with guns, and that child subsequently shoots himself, then I am indeed guilty of reckless homicide, and it would be no defense to say that I told the child not to play with the gun before leaving him alone with the gun and the psychopath. This would especially be the case if I was secretly observing the events in the room and could intervene at any time I chose.
Now, why should your imaginary friend be held to a lower moral standard than everyone else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 4:34 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 7:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 69 of 477 (548464)
02-27-2010 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
02-27-2010 6:50 PM


Re: Reckless Endangerment
Stupid analogy.
Do you know how long it was after creation that Adam sinned?
Do you know how much of God Adam knew before he sinned?
Do you know what all God did for Adam and Eve to show His love for them in this time period from creation to fall?
God did not leave Adam alone in the garden. God does not leave places.
If you had a strong relationship with the kid and the kid was assured of your love for him, then the kid will heed to you and not your enemy. Are you suggesting that God created Adam at 10 am on monday, 11 a.m adam sinned, 1 p.m adam got kicked out? What the crap! Adam knew enough about God's goodness to make the right choice. Here's proof:
Gen 1: 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the groundeverything that has the breath of life in itI give every green plant for food." And it was so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-27-2010 6:50 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 8:12 PM Pauline has replied
 Message 75 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-27-2010 9:18 PM Pauline has replied
 Message 79 by ZenMonkey, posted 02-27-2010 9:33 PM Pauline has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 70 of 477 (548465)
02-27-2010 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Taz
02-27-2010 6:48 PM


Hmm, so you hate the non-existent, right? Do you hate ignorance?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 6:48 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 8:07 PM Pauline has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 71 of 477 (548474)
02-27-2010 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Pauline
02-27-2010 7:01 PM


DrSing writes:
Hmm, so you hate the non-existent, right?
Sorry that my message didn't get through.
In other words, considering the non-existent don't exist, so neither does my hate for them.
Do you hate ignorance?
I don't know what you are talking about. But I absolutely love brother Peter Popoff. Alleluia!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 7:01 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 8:43 PM Taz has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 72 of 477 (548477)
02-27-2010 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Pauline
02-27-2010 7:00 PM


Re: Reckless Endangerment
Dr. Sing writes:
Adam knew enough about God's goodness to make the right choice.
I'm sorry, but I could have sworn your own bible says Adam didn't know good or evil before he ate the fruit. Here, let me quote it for you.
Gen 2
quote:
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
quote:
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 7:00 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 8:46 PM Taz has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 73 of 477 (548483)
02-27-2010 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taz
02-27-2010 8:07 PM


Sorry that my message didn't get through.
In other words, considering the non-existent don't exist, so neither does my hate for them.
On what basis do you hate something you've never seen? Have you ever seen your hatred? Touched it? Well, I think your hatred is non-existent as well. Therefore, you hate your hatred of non-existent things. No wonder evolutionists are what they are.
That video is absolute dung. That is NOT Christianity, NOT the teaching of the Bible, NOT authentic preaching, NOT worthy to be seen. Prosperity gospel is pseudo gospel. Jesus doesn't promise you $ 47000 if you trust in Him. He says the world will HATE you if you trust in me. Which is precisely what I get on these forums. I tell you, God will punish these false christians so much for demeaning His Gospel that smoke from hell will choke angels sitting in heaven watching them burn!! Idiotic video, wasted my precious time.
SO, are videos of this kind where your knowledge of Christianity comes from?
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 8:07 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 11:15 PM Pauline has not replied
 Message 93 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 9:25 AM Pauline has not replied
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 9:30 AM Pauline has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 74 of 477 (548484)
02-27-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taz
02-27-2010 8:12 PM


Re: Reckless Endangerment
I'm sorry, but I could have sworn your own bible says Adam didn't know good or evil before he ate the fruit.
Senseless statement.
That's easy to answer. God's goodness=God's benevolence. Does a infant know its mother's goodness toward it? Yes. Does the same infant know the difference between murder and charity? No.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : clarified something

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Taz, posted 02-27-2010 8:12 PM Taz has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 75 of 477 (548488)
02-27-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Pauline
02-27-2010 7:00 PM


Re: Reckless Endangerment
Stupid analogy.
Perhaps you could explain why instead of just saying so.
Do you know how long it was after creation that Adam sinned?
Do you know how much of God Adam knew before he sinned?
Do you know what all God did for Adam and Eve to show His love for them in this time period from creation to fall?
Why is this relevant?
God did not leave Adam alone in the garden. God does not leave places.
That's why my analogy included the proposition that I am in fact watching what's going on in the room and could intervene at any time.
If you had a strong relationship with the kid and the kid was assured of your love for him, then the kid will heed to you and not your enemy.
Children who know that their parents love them do not in fact invariably take their parents' advice.
Are you suggesting that God created Adam at 10 am on monday, 11 a.m adam sinned, 1 p.m adam got kicked out?
No. You can tell I'm not suggesting that by the way that I didn't suggest it.
Adam knew enough about God's goodness ...
But without knowing good from evil, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 7:00 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 9:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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