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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 91 of 477 (548561)
02-28-2010 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by slevesque
02-23-2010 12:39 AM


Satan is Not a Fallen Angel
Here's another issue.
Satan is not a fallen angel. The OT does not support this idea.
The word satan is nothing more than an adversary. It was personified in the story of Job. In normal usage, the word does not refer to a supernatural being battling God. Anyone can be an adversary. Sometimes angels were adversaries and sometimes people were.
I feel that the influence of Zoroastrianism brought about the change in Judaism concerning the source of good and evil.
One of the most important differences beween Jewish monotheism and Zoroastrian monotheism is that Jews recognize the one God as the source of both good and evil, light and darkness, while Zoroastrians, during all the phases of their long theological history, think of God only as the source of Good, with Evil as a separate principle. There is a famous passage in Second Isaiah, composed during or after the Exile, which is sometimes cited as a Jewish rebuke to the Zoroastrian idea of a dualistic God: "I am YHVH, unrivalled: I form the light and create the dark. I make good fortune and create calamity, it is I, YHVH, who do all this." (Isaiah 45:7) This passage, which is a major source for Jewish speculation on the source of good and evil in the world, denies the Zoroastrian idea of a God who is the source only of "good" and favorable things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by slevesque, posted 02-23-2010 12:39 AM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 9:48 AM purpledawn has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 477 (548567)
02-28-2010 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Pauline
02-27-2010 10:28 PM


what do you mean by alleviate the message?
It means that you can't water down, minimize, or distract everyone from what was said clearly.
quote:
In describing himself, he mentions that he creates evil.
Uhhhhhh....no He creates disaster.
Whatever you want to call it, God kills indiscriminately. My translation says "evil."
the People of Israel were the most special people to God.
Interesting how it was the Israelites who wrote the bible. Strange coincidence that they were the chosen one's and also the authors. Suddenly I find myself wondering what the difference is between this and jihad.
He utterly destroyed Egypt to give them their freedom. Remember the 10 plagues? THATS the kind of evil God is referring to here.
Agreed, which is the same difference. Remember how God said that he hardened Pharaoh's heart? Where is the freewill? It's like Judas, who was born to die. That was his purpose in life.
Before time, God knew that adam would sin. During time, adam sinned.
You're still missing the 2-ton elephant in the room. God provided the schematic for everything. Whatever desires man had, whatever things that were necessary for their survival, God made. God imparted in man certain qualities and gave them certain instincts.
How is it possible that God made Adam perfect, in accordance with his will, and yet Adam could somehow create sin all on his own? That doesn't make any sense.
He gives you the desire for sinful ways, and then offers Jesus as your means of salvation.
That's like an arsonist who sets your house on fire, but then comes to you as a firefighter to put the fire out that he originally started!
You mean, why did God create Lucifer? Simple, to be angel who serves God and fellowships with God.
What a more applicable question really is, "why did lucifer sin?"
None of that is in the bible. These are old traditions that have no biblical foundation. The role of "Satan" has changed dramatically throughout the bible. In the Old Testament he was a tempter, a tester of faith's, but all done by the will of God.
By the New Testament he was no longer a facilitator of God's will. Now he was something far more diabolical and much more feared.
Yes. The Tree of knowledge of good and evil was meant to be discovered. But that doesn't imply that eating its fruit (which God forbids) automatically follows
Sure it does since God specifically created it for the purpose of giving the knowledge of good and evil.
I say God's desire was that Adam resist the temptation and follow path two.
Yes, exactly right. My point is that God intentionally placed this in front him, tempted him with this test, all the while knowing he would fail because he couldn't have known the gravity of the situation; he couldn't have understood how severe and how harsh a punishment was coming.
But adam failed God.
Or God failed Adam, depending on the perspective.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 10:28 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 10:31 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 477 (548571)
02-28-2010 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Pauline
02-27-2010 8:43 PM


Double post
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 8:43 PM Pauline has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 477 (548572)
02-28-2010 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Pauline
02-27-2010 8:43 PM


He says the world will HATE you if you trust in me. Which is precisely what I get on these forums.
Sounds more like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I tell you, God will punish these false christians so much for demeaning His Gospel that smoke from hell will choke angels sitting in heaven watching them burn!! Idiotic video, wasted my precious time.
I can feel the love of Jesus through you. Heaven must be packed with all of your converts.
This is just a suggestion that you might find it more beneficial to your ministry, according to Galatians 5:
Fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Sinful nature: hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy, etc
Hmmmmmm????

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 8:43 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 9:52 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 95 of 477 (548575)
02-28-2010 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by purpledawn
02-28-2010 6:36 AM


Re: Satan is Not a Fallen Angel
Isaiah 14 (New International Version)
Isaiah 14
1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Aliens will join them
and unite with the house of Jacob.
2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And the house of Israel will possess the nations
as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.
3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [a] has ended!
5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
"Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down."
9 The grave [b] below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
This chapter is God talking about the King of Babylon, who oppressed Israel. Verses 12-14 speak of "ascending to heaven", "set my throne of high", "ascend above the heights of the clouds", "make myself like the Most High". It does not make sense that a physical, earthly kind would have such desires. But it make sense that since Babylon was Israel's enemy, Satan would be for them and God is directly addressing satan in this chapter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by purpledawn, posted 02-28-2010 6:36 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 9:58 AM Pauline has replied
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 02-28-2010 12:23 PM Pauline has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 96 of 477 (548576)
02-28-2010 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2010 9:30 AM


I can feel the love of Jesus through you. Heaven must be packed with all of your converts.
This is just a suggestion that you might find it more beneficial to your ministry, according to Galatians 5:
Fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Sinful nature: hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, envy, etc
Hmmmmmm????
No webpage found at provided URL: http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 9:30 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 10:01 AM Pauline has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 477 (548577)
02-28-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Pauline
02-28-2010 9:48 AM


Re: Satan is Not a Fallen Angel
This chapter is God talking about the King of Babylon, who oppressed Israel. Verses 12-14 speak of "ascending to heaven", "set my throne of high", "ascend above the heights of the clouds", "make myself like the Most High".
No, it is talking about the King of Babylon. It is using imagery that the author thinks he exalts himself above the Most High.
It does not make sense that a physical, earthly kind would have such desires.
But it makes sense that maggots are spread all over Satan's body?

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 9:48 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 10:40 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 477 (548578)
02-28-2010 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Pauline
02-28-2010 9:52 AM


I was commenting on your behavior, not Peter Popoff.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 9:52 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 10:33 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 99 of 477 (548580)
02-28-2010 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2010 8:55 AM


It means that you can't water down, minimize, or distract everyone from what was said clearly.
All I did was put the verse which you pulled out of context back into context and brought perspective to the discussion.
Agreed, which is the same difference. Remember how God said that he hardened Pharaoh's heart? Where is the freewill? It's like Judas, who was born to die. That was his purpose in life.
I am a Calvinist actually. I believe in pre-destination. And I believe that God was being perfectly just in allowing a human to work against Him in fulfilling God's plan. (I know this may sound painful to you)
That's like an arsonist who sets your house on fire, but then comes to you as a firefighter to put the fire out that he originally started!
No matter how many illustrations you give, they won't convey a thing.
What do you mean by God gives sinful desires? Whats your proof for that claim? When the Bible clearly says that God does not tempt people, how can you?
James 1:12-14 (New International Version)
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
This passage looks like it was tailor-made for Adam. Follow the logic. Satan tempts Adam (through eve), Adam chooses to disobey God, Adam is dragged away and enticed! Adam sins.
None of that is in the bible. These are old traditions that have no biblical foundation. The role of "Satan" has changed dramatically throughout the bible. In the Old Testament he was a tempter, a tester of faith's, but all done by the will of God.
By the New Testament he was no longer a facilitator of God's will. Now he was something far more diabolical and much more feared.
Satan
Sure it does since God specifically created it for the purpose of giving the knowledge of good and evil.
Who told you this?
You seem to think in a self-contradictory manner. You agree that God created the tree, that God "forbade its use", and yet now you say "God created the tree "for use" If God forbade its use then obviously God does not want to its fruit to be eaten! Right? Who knows what purpose God had in creating the tree? Maybe it had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with humans? Who knows what would have happened if Adam resisted the temptation?? Maybe God would have removed the tree form the garden...and Adam would never have to worry again. The tree is not the issue here. Adam is.
he couldn't have understood how severe and how harsh a punishment was coming.
We take precautions for many things when our parents or elders warn us. We do not need to taste the outcome before taking a precaution in order to make up our mind. Either you make up or mind to take a precaution or you don't. Tasting the outcome or knowing what it entails is most often irrelevant. Especially when God Himself tells you not to do something.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : I made a huge blunder. I later thought about that I said and rushed here to correct my mistake. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 8:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 11:31 AM Pauline has replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 100 of 477 (548581)
02-28-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2010 10:01 AM


And I was giving you the rationale behind my words towards Popoff.
Anyway, this off-topic. Admins, I apologize.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 10:01 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 101 of 477 (548584)
02-28-2010 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2010 9:58 AM


Re: Satan is Not a Fallen Angel
Reference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 9:58 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 11:47 AM Pauline has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 477 (548588)
02-28-2010 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Pauline
02-28-2010 10:31 AM


Metaphors in Genesis
All I did was put the verse which you pulled out of context back into context and brought perspective to the discussion.
It's already in context. If I gave a story about a man named Bob, and somewhere in the story of Bob I mention that I created evil, am I taking my attribute out context? No, obviously not. Especially if you are a literalist, which it sounds like a doctrine you ascribe to.
I agree that Judas (and Pharaoh) had no freewill with regards to being for or against Christ. Okay, yeah, he was born a God-hater.
Does that seem compatible with an all-loving and fair God?
No matter how many illustrations you give, they won't convey a thing.
So in other words, your choice is made before the fact and I am wasting my time?
What do you mean by God gives sinful desires? Whats your proof for that claim? When the Bible clearly says that God does not tempt people, how can you?
It's common sense. All you have to do is look at it logically and stop giving the bible its authority on the account of the bible giving itself authority, because that's circular.
The bible is the Word of God. "How do you know?" Because the bible says so.
This passage looks like it was tailor-made for Adam. Follow the logic. Satan tempts Adam (through eve), Adam chooses to disobey God, Adam is dragged away and enticed! Adam sins.
If God created Adam and created Satan, and nothing can exist apart from God's doing, how is it philosophically possible that sin just sprouted out of thin air? It can't. It does not make any sense. The fact that man has to wrestle his spirit against the flesh should be a good indicator that God gave you that flesh.
The point is that he designed it that way. Perhaps he did it for contrast, but that much at least seems very obvious. But if that is the case, then God certainly does tempt, even if indirectly, because he created man according to his will. He imparted in mankind all of the properties he desired.
Because God is theoretically perfect, he is incapable of error. If that is so, then he obviously intended for all this suffering to prove some cosmic point.
Who told you this?
I don't need to be told things to formulate opinions based on observations.
You seem to think in a self-contradictory manner.
No, I'm pointing out the contradictions.
You agree that God created the tree, that God "forbade its use", and yet now you say "God created the tree "for use" If God forbade its use then obviously God does not want to its fruit to be eaten! Right?
No, it's reverse psychology. He told us not to eat knowing all along we would be too enticed not to. What he obviously really wanted was for man to eat it, so he could prove his point that man needs God and that God is in control.
Who knows what purpose God had in creating the tree? Maybe it had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with humans?
We already know what the purpose of the tree was. The purpose is knowing what good and evil is.
Who knows what would have happened if Adam resisted the temptation?? Maybe God would have removed the tree form the garden...and Adam would never have to worry again. The tree is not the issue here. Adam is.
No, God is the issue since it's all his doing in accordance with his will. How can you blame Adam who didn't even know it was wrong to begin with until after-the-fact? How can you blame Adam when God gave the Serpent, the most cunningly evil created being ever to exist, unlimited access to beguile the world's most naive man and woman? How can you blame Adam for being inquisitive when God created the man to be that way?
Are you beginning to see a pattern? Who is the common denominator?
We take precautions for many things when our parents or elders warn us. We do not need to taste the outcome before taking a precaution in order to make up our mind. Either you make up or mind to take a precaution or you don't. Tasting the outcome or knowing what it entails is most often irrelevant. Especially when God Himself tells you not to do something.
They couldn't know it was wrong if they hadn't eaten it. It spells it out plainly in the text! So any analogy is futile for the simple fact that you are skirting around that obvious problem.
Even supposing we allow this analogy, when a kid burns himself on a stove the parents are still to blame because he is too naive to grasp the precaution. Same principle applies here to God, seems to me.
Now, what I believe is that the Genesis narrative is not literal and was never intended to be viewed as literal. Jews the world mostly do not believe this is a literal story and find it amusing that so many Christians do.
Like most fireside stories of their day, it is a metaphorical story used to teach us the importance of obeying God's principles. The funny thing is if we looked at the story from a literal point of view, God would be the biggest tyrant the world has ever seen because he has caused or own undoing.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 10:31 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 12:22 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 111 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 7:12 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 477 (548590)
02-28-2010 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Pauline
02-28-2010 10:40 AM


Re: Satan is Not a Fallen Angel
You already provided the reference.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 10:40 AM Pauline has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3735 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 104 of 477 (548592)
02-28-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Hyroglyphx
02-28-2010 11:31 AM


Re: Metaphors in Genesis
It's common sense. All you have to do is look at it logically and stop giving the bible its authority on the account of the bible giving itself authority, because that's circular.
The bible is the Word of God. "How do you know?" Because the bible says so.
Lets say you heard about a "famous history teacher". People around you talk about this man a lot. One fine day, you bump into a random guy, and he says sorry. You recognize his picture from the papers (famous right?). You're like "aren't you??..." He says, "Yes, I am"
What is wrong with the man telling you that he is the famous history teacher you've been hearing about? Would you say to him, "shut up, that's circular logic, how can you say you're the teacher based on your own authority, huh??"
On the other hand, if the man is silent when you ask him who he is, will you not think that he doesn't know what you're talking about? You will. Whats wrong with the Bible telling us that its testimony is true? Nothing! In fact iself-testimony is the right approach. Credibility necessitates self-testimony, would you not agree?
Plus, we've got historical evidence to back up Biblical claims, numbers, people facts. There is much more evidence for the Bible's claims than for any other religious book. Rama? Krishna? Saraswati? Kali? Hanuman? Where's the evidence?
Because God is theoretically perfect, he is incapable of error. If that is so, then he obviously intended for all this suffering to prove some cosmic point.
1. There is no cosmic point
2. There is no evil plan
Its all in the way you and I interpret the Bible.
Okay, leaving everything aside (I know you have a LOT of things to say in your latest post), lets just remake a starting point for ourselves here. What do you think "nothing can come apart from God's doing" means?
Does it mean:
1. God does everything or
2. Whatever happens passes God's approval before it happens.
The Bible hold the second view an so do I. Evidently, you hold the first view. Hence your saying that God created sin. Right? Well if you hold the faulty view, faulty conclusions are inevitable.
On the other hand, when you view God as an authority figure whose approval every event must pass, you will come to the conclusion that God permitted the entry of sin into the world. Satan offered sin to Adam, Adam accepted it, God permitted it, voila! sin enters the world. Now, could God have not permitted sin to enter the world? Yes. Why did he not do it? I speculate that He wanted all of us to learn a little lesson about Him namely no one can thwart God's plan forever and those who do try end up in misery. "A little bit of a selfish plan?", an atheist may remark. Very unselfish is my response.
P.S: I am not evading the Judas question. I think 1. this is not the appropriate thread 2. it is not something that can be resolved in a conversation between two on the internet. However, if you still want to talk about it, maybe another time in another thread
Edited by Dr. Sing, : added something
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-28-2010 11:31 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Blue Jay, posted 03-01-2010 10:19 AM Pauline has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 105 of 477 (548593)
02-28-2010 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Pauline
02-28-2010 9:48 AM


Re: Satan is Not a Fallen Angel
quote:
This chapter is God talking about the King of Babylon, who oppressed Israel.
Exactly! It isn't taking about a being named Satan. Satan: Early History
I showed in Message 91 that in Isaiah 45:7, the writer clearly states that God is the source of good and bad events.
NIV
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah is poetic and today the average person doesn't have access to all the stories and events that were meaningful to the audience of the time.
The Morning Star in Isaiah 14:12
The passage refers to the king of Babylon, a man who seemed all-powerful, but who has been brought down to the abode of the dead ("Sheol"). Isaiah promises that the Israelites will be freed and will then be able to use in a taunting song against their oppressor the image of the Morning Star, which rises at dawn as the brightest of the stars, outshining Jupiter and Saturn, but lasting only until the sun appears. This image was used in an old popular Canaanite story that the Morning Star tried to rise high above the clouds and establish himself on the mountain where the gods assembled, in the far north, but was cast down into the underworld.[6][11]
The poetic phrasing was familiar to Isaiah's audience and I feel his audience knew he was referring to the human king of Babylon.
quote:
Verses 12-14 speak of "ascending to heaven", "set my throne of high", "ascend above the heights of the clouds", "make myself like the Most High". It does not make sense that a physical, earthly kind would have such desires. But it make sense that since Babylon was Israel's enemy, Satan would be for them and God is directly addressing satan in this chapter.
Now you can see that it does make sense given the story of the Morning Star. The poem is still talking about the King of Babylon.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 9:48 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Pauline, posted 02-28-2010 1:02 PM purpledawn has replied

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