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Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Why creationist definitions of evolution are wrong, terribly wrong. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
which means there is no such thing as microevolution and macroevolution just evolution Only if there's also no such thing as an inch and a mile only distance.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
How can speciation be the evolution of groups larger than speciation? It isn't, it is the evolution of groups larger than a single species. When your two horses are sufficiently reproductively isolated as to be considered distinct species then your original group of 1 species has become a group of 2 species and is therefore a group larger than a single species. This is really very straightforward, I'm not sure what the problem is that you are having with it. TTFN, WK
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
Only if there's also no such thing as an inch and a mile only distance.
last I checked the the words were only used by creationists. They aren't units of measuring anything and have no use as words in science. Something can't "macroevolve" It evolves. Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi DC85, time for an update.
last I checked the the words were only used by creationists. Wrong. From the University of Michigan
quote: From Berkeley Universityquote: andquote: Microevolution is the evolution within species, while macroevolution is the effect of such evolution on the diversity of life via speciation events, the divergence of sibling species after speciation, and the formation of nested hierarchies. Enjoy we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
last I checked the the words were only used by creationists. They aren't units of measuring anything and have no use as words in science. Something can't "macroevolve" It evolves. The terms are used by scientists, just not a great deal - mostly because they don't form natural categories. Although I suspect the Creationist abuse of the terms has helped drive them to the margins.
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
I stand corrected however I still really don't see the need to differentiate. It would be the same thing. I see the "definition" but don't see the real need for the word as one describes the other. It's not like a unit of measurement
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
DC85 writes:
I stand corrected however I still really don't see the need to differentiate. It would be the same thing. I see the "definition" but don't see the real need for the word as one describes the other. It's not like a unit of measurement
Right, as in 1 mile = 63,360 inches every time. Indeed 10 million micros may or may not equal a macro. It is even possible for 1 micro to be the difference and thus make a macro. Perhaps, like the straw on the camel's back, every macro was precipitated by the last micro in a chain of micros that eventually became too much to hold together. But an inch will never be a mile, unless it's an inch given to a congressman about to embark on a filibuster. - xongsmith, 5.7d
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DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
Right, as in 1 mile = 63,360 inches every time. I just figure speciation and evolution were sufficient to describe what's needed but I'm nitpicking and swaying the topic
Indeed 10 million micros may or may not equal a macro. It is even possible for 1 micro to be the difference and thus make a macro. Perhaps, like the straw on the camel's back, every macro was precipitated by the last micro in a chain of micros that eventually became too much to hold together. But an inch will never be a mile, unless it's an inch given to a congressman about to embark on a filibuster.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
There remains debate whether microevolutionary trends suffice to account for macroevolutionary patterns. For example, it is difficult to see how microevolution can account for the distribution of marsupials or the rise of oxygen metabolising organisms. Gould and Eldridge have (bizarelly, IMO) claimed that special explaination is required for phyla.
Now, personally, I'd argue that treating largely scale processes as deserving of a crudely divided category along speciation lines such as micro/macro but it's not an entirely closed question.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi WK,
Wounded King writes: It isn't, it is the evolution of groups larger than a single species. When your two horses are sufficiently reproductively isolated as to be considered distinct species then your original group of 1 species has become a group of 2 species and is therefore a group larger than a single species. Which one of my horses is not a horse? Would it be the 57 pound mare or the 2300 pound Stallion? God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2133 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Which one of my horses is not a horse?
You seem so proud of those horses. If they are really yours, then I would agree. If they are just a photo you found somewhere, then not. Would it be the 57 pound mare or the 2300 pound Stallion? Now what would happen if you turned all of those horses out into the wild and gave them, say, 1,000 years to do their horsie thing? If you looked in 1,000 years I would suspect you would have a single horse species running around doing their horsie thing. The divergent sizes would have been eliminated for the artificial constructs that they are. And where would that leave your point that they are two different species? Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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lyx2no Member (Idle past 4743 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: |
Which one of my horses is not a horse? They are both horses. Do you really expect any of us to believe that you are incapable of distinguishing a higher order categorization from a lower order categorization? Which is not a shape, ICANT, a circle or a square? Which is not a pet: a cat or a dog? Which is not a fruit: an apple or an orange? Pretense is a form of lying. You are now a million miles away from where you were in space-time when you started reading this sentence.
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Which one of my horses is not a horse? Would it be the 57 pound mare or the 2300 pound Stallion? I'd be inclined to go with Coyote's answer, that in fact you are just being overly simplistic in thinking that the mere fact that those two horses can't interbreed mechanistically means that they are actually differerent species. Unless there is a genetic barrier preventing them from interbreeding with other intermediately sized horses then there is probably a good chance that there is still considerable scope for gene flow among the different horse populations. Most of the phenotypic diversity selected for by domestic breeding in animals like horses and dogs can at best perhaps be considered examples of incipient speciation since a pre-mating barrier has been introduced for some sub-populations. What your horses are is more probably the non interbreeding ends of a spectrum of overlapping interbreeding populations, in other words the extremities of a horse ring species. If one of your horses had lost its ability to interbreed with all other horse populations as well then obviously that would be the one that had formed a new species, it wouldn't have stopped being a horse, but it wouldn't be part of the potentially interbreeding population which is the species Equus Caballus. TTFN, WK
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Asking Junior Member (Idle past 5065 days) Posts: 19 Joined: |
Setting up a Strawman of evolution and then knocking it down is a common creationist tactic. Sadly the less informed seem to fall for it all the time.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Asking, and welcome to the fray.
Setting up a Strawman of evolution and then knocking it down is a common creationist tactic. Sadly the less informed seem to fall for it all the time. Indeed, and not just because they are under-informed about reality, but because the creationist hoax of misinformation feeds them the kind of information they wish were true. Enjoy.
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