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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 61 of 492 (548703)
03-01-2010 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by kbertsche
03-01-2010 12:15 AM


Re: Hebrews 1:8
KB,
Does Psalms 45 say that the messiah will be god?
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
Edited by hERICtic, : Two edits for 11 words. Sheesh. Need to wake up here. Coffee!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by kbertsche, posted 03-03-2010 12:45 AM hERICtic has replied

  
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 4809 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 62 of 492 (548704)
03-01-2010 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Peg
03-01-2010 4:48 AM


Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
Peg writes:
Proverbs 8:22-31
"Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
This proverb certainly applies to Jesus.
But only a few verses earlier, Proverbs 8:12
quote:
I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion
The first person narrator in this case is an anthropomorphic personification of wisdom. I see no good reason to believe the text is refering to Jesus.
Respectfully,
-Meldinoor
Edited by Meldinoor, : Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
Edited by Meldinoor, : Ah, what a klutz I am. Put the subtitle as a reason for edit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Peg, posted 03-01-2010 4:48 AM Peg has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 63 of 492 (548706)
03-01-2010 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Meldinoor
03-01-2010 5:22 AM


Re: Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
Melindoor writes:
The first person narrator in this case is an anthropomorphic personification of wisdom. I see no good reason to believe the text is refering to Jesus.
This passage cannot be speaking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract for the reason that the wisdom being described was produced, or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise so his wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not brought forth as with labor pains. Besides, this wisdom is said to speak, act and even have feelings so it must be representing a person.

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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 64 of 492 (548710)
03-01-2010 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dawn Bertot
03-01-2010 3:09 AM


Perfect sacrifice
MEA writes:
Because Christ said, "why do you call me good,there is none good but God", which means he could not be the perfect sacrifice, if he was not perfect. How can he be less than perfect, yet a perfect sacrifince?
"Who did no sin , niether was guile found in his mouth". If Christ was completley GOOD, perfect and sinless and there is only one that is Good, that would make Christ God, by Christs own words
Or christ could have been claiming Godship,by saying, do you realize what you are calling me when you call me GOOD? In his instance he is saying to the person, do you realize you are calling me God.
In this instance and passage Christ is claiming to this person that he is actually God. If he is not good in any respect as a created being, as this passage would suggest then he is and WAS NOT QUALIFIED to be a perfect sacrifice.
Mark 10 is quite damning to trinitarians, bc its shows Jesus admitting he is not god. Trinitarians attempt to turn it around by stating, as you have, that he is being called god and bringing this to the mans attention. But lets look at the context.
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is goodexcept God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"
Jesus questions why he is called "good". Notice what happens next.
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
After being corrected, does the man exclaim that he is in the presense of god? Is he shocked that Jesus calls himself god? Is he in awe? No. He makes a statement, but DROPS the "good" this time. In other words, Jesus corrected him and he followed what Jesus asked. Only god is good. Jesus is not god.
You would think if Jesus was walking about preaching that he was god, the high priests and the council would bring this up in the high court. Instead, they accused him of claiming to be the messiah. They would not have had any difficulty condemning him if he was claiming to be god.
Jesus makes the claim over and over he is a man, sent by god. He is the messenger of god, that the message he teaches is not his own. That he is not all knowing. That he is not all powerful. He prays to god. He claims he has a god.
Last but not least, you stated that Jesus was the perfect sacrfice. This is different than claiming he is a perfect being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-01-2010 3:09 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-01-2010 9:47 AM hERICtic has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 65 of 492 (548724)
03-01-2010 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by hERICtic
03-01-2010 6:52 AM


Re: Perfect sacrifice
Jesus questions why he is called "good". Notice what happens next.
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
After being corrected, does the man exclaim that he is in the presense of god? Is he shocked that Jesus calls himself god? Is he in awe? No. He makes a statement, but DROPS the "good" this time. In other words, Jesus corrected him and he followed what Jesus asked. Only god is good. Jesus is not god.
Jesus never exclaimed, IAM NOT GOOD, in this context, he was testing the mans resolve. He, at another time exclaimed IAM. Change it to what you wish, the text certainly allows the IAM
Show me a passage by Christ or another writer where it is stated he is and was not perfect. All passages in this connection indicate exacally the opposite,
"that he was without sin and no guile was found in his mouth"
"he was in all point tempted as we yet WITHOUT SIN"
Jesus makes the claim over and over he is a man, sent by god. He is the messenger of god, that the message he teaches is not his own. That he is not all knowing. That he is not all powerful. He prays to god. He claims he has a god.
Last but not least, you stated that Jesus was the perfect sacrfice. This is different than claiming he is a perfect being.
thanks for restating exacally what happened in the text, your delimma still exists, he was either completley good or he is not without spot and blemish as the rest of the NT states. So which is it?
EAM
Edited by MEA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by hERICtic, posted 03-01-2010 6:52 AM hERICtic has replied

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 66 of 492 (548737)
03-01-2010 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Peg
03-01-2010 5:31 AM


Re: Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
This passage cannot be speaking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract for the reason that the wisdom being described was produced, or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise so his wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
Even if we attribute this passage to an actual being Peg, it is said to have existed in the same way God has FROM ETERNITY
Speaking of wisdom it says
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began. "
Appointment certainly should be understood and brought into focus with the everlasting aspect. When was the beiginning of eternity? Did jehovah actually start at some point with wisdom or was it always with him. John 1:1
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Peg, posted 03-01-2010 5:31 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 67 of 492 (548760)
03-01-2010 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dawn Bertot
03-01-2010 11:35 AM


Re: Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
EMA writes:
Even if we attribute this passage to an actual being Peg, it is said to have existed in the same way God has FROM ETERNITY
never do we see a statement that says 'God was produced' or 'God was created'
He is eternal and had no beginning
but in this proverb, the one being spoken of is said to have a beginning. We can go over and over this point, but no matter how you look at it, this person had a beginning, this person 'came to be beside God as a master worker'
You know God had no beginning, so nor did his wisdom....but this person did so he is not God but somone else.
EMA writes:
Appointment certainly should be understood and brought into focus with the everlasting aspect.
the problem here is that to be 'appointed' shows a beginning. Eternity does not have a beginning, it cannot be appointed, it just is.
Yet this person is also 'appointed' and therefore could not have existed prior to that appointment. IOW, not eternal like God is. God was never appointed becaues he IS eternal, but this person was appointed as the beginning of Gods ways.
So we understand it to be speaking about the very first creation of God before the universe, before the earth, before all other angelic creatures. Jesus was the beginning of Gods creations. Jesus became the master worker who, thru Gods direction and power, brought all other things into existence...inluding mankind which whom the proverb says 'The things I was fond of was the sons of men'....and hence why Jesus was the perfect choice to send to earth to redeem mankind from their fallen condition.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-01-2010 11:35 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 68 of 492 (548788)
03-01-2010 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dawn Bertot
03-01-2010 9:47 AM


Re: Perfect sacrifice
Mea writes:
Jesus never exclaimed, IAM NOT GOOD, in this context, he was testing the mans resolve. He, at another time exclaimed IAM. Change it to what you wish, the text certainly allows the IAM
No, but he infered it. He corrects the man for calling him good". Again, after he is called good, Jesus corrects him. The man drops the "good". Not once does the man acknowledge that Jesus is god. Also, I already asked but you didnt answer: If Jesus was preaching he is god (a certain death penalty for doing so) why didnt the high priests and the council bring it up? They never once claimed Jesus was stating he was god, only that he was claiming to be the messiah.
As for the "I am", this has already been covered in great detail by Peg. God is never called "I am" to begin with. Second, it makes little sense in the context to state, "Before Abraham, god".Third, are you suggesting that in this big moment Jesus reveals he is god, then runs and hides????
Mea writes:
Show me a passage by Christ or another writer where it is stated he is and was not perfect. All passages in this connection indicate exacally the opposite,
"that he was without sin and no guile was found in his mouth"
"he was in all point tempted as we yet WITHOUT SIN"
Please give the scripture from now on so I can look up the passages. Thanks. Your logic though is that Jesus must be god bc he is perfect. Jesus was sinless. Where does it state he was perect? Also, why couldnt god create a being that did not make mistakes?
Eric previously writes:
Jesus makes the claim over and over he is a man, sent by god. He is the messenger of god, that the message he teaches is not his own. That he is not all knowing. That he is not all powerful. He prays to god. He claims he has a god.
Last but not least, you stated that Jesus was the perfect sacrfice. This is different than claiming he is a perfect being.
Mea writes:
thanks for restating exacally what happened in the text, your delimma still exists, he was either completley good or he is not without spot and blemish as the rest of the NT states. So which is it?
You have not provided any evidence that Jesus was god. All you have done is claim Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. On top of that, you have a habit of ignoring every single verse which states Jesus was not god. There are so many that are quite clear Jesus was not god. Heck, he prayed to NOT be killed! Does this sound like god to you?
A simple question: Could god have created a person who was the perfect sacrifice? Yes or no.

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 69 of 492 (548854)
03-02-2010 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by hERICtic
03-01-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Perfect sacrifice
A simple question: Could god have created a person who was the perfect sacrifice? Yes or no.
The answer is duh and No
lets start with the most startling of your statements first. this is probably the silliest question I have ever heard from a biblical perspective. you cant create perfection, GOOD, sinlessness, in a moral sense, where freewill is involved. thats not perfection thats creating a robot.
Chist (who Paul states in no uncertain terms is EQUAL WITH GOD) as Paul states, humbled himself and took on the form of a servant and became obedient, even unto death. these are choices H not an act of creation
Obviously you have not learned the simple rule in biblical interpretation that the higher regard and designation trumps the lesser. If an inspired writer designates Christ as equal with God any other verse that SEEMS to contradict it or LESSEN its import should be understood in another context.
here is a simple example. christ is called the son of Man, but he is also called the unique or only begotten Son of God. from these verses alone it is easy to see he was more than a human being a human son etc. Now if another writer by inspiration comes along and says he is equal with God, i can find ways to manuver that passage depending on my theology or I can understan it to mean what it says.
here is a simple question. if as you suggest Jesus was a created being, how by any strech of the imagination or interpretation could he be equal with God. No created being is or could be equal with God
There are so many that are quite clear Jesus was not god. Heck, he prayed to NOT be killed! Does this sound like god to you?
Yes.
As God he humbled himself and became human, from a position of respect and took on the FORM of a servant. being born as a man he was MADE A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGLELS. It is in this very beautiful respect that he was subserviant to his heavenly father, but now watch, as Paul puts it, he never ceased to be God or equal with God, he simply took on the role of a servant
What you do not accept I believe AS PEG does is that the same Spirit that inspired Christ inspired Paul, to make a complete picture of Christ. heck if there were no verses that did not state he WAS equal to God, i would not believe it either. I cant disregard them or change them to fit my theology.
On top of that, you have a habit of ignoring every single verse which states Jesus was not god. There are so many that are quite clear Jesus was not god
H, IM not ignoring these verses, Im explaining in context that God humbled himself to a position where his actions required servitude. Besides this these verses do not say he was not God, they must interpreted in light of the whole context of scripture
Thanks. Your logic though is that Jesus must be god bc he is perfect. Jesus was sinless. Where does it state he was perect? Also, why couldnt god create a being that did not make mistakes?
right here
Hebrews 2:10.
"For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation PERFECT through sufferings." Hebrews 2:10.
H, in scripture perfection, sinless and GOOD usually have to do with eachother. Even if jesus did stump his toe at times it would have nothing to do with the requirements of a sinless sacrifice or him being completely good (moral). he was sinless and therefore completely GOOD. If only God is GOOD and christ was sinless and perfect then he was God, according to Christ and Pauls inspired logic.
the question he ask the person was not to imply he was not GOOD, but to demonstrate that the person asking the question did not understand the meaning of the expression of "Good teacher", in the first place
Also, why couldnt god create a being that did not make mistakes?
He can create a creature that does not make mistakes, its called a robot, but he cannot create a creature that is sinless, perfect or good where freewill is not involved. since the scriptures make it clear that christ was sinless, perfect (in a moral sense), therefore GOOD, and none are good but God, it doesnt take a rocket scientest to figure out that Christ is God
If Jesus was preaching he is god (a certain death penalty for doing so) why didnt the high priests and the council bring it up? They never once claimed Jesus was stating he was god, only that he was claiming to be the messiah.
John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
here was a perfect place to dispel any misunderstanding about who he was claiming to be, yet he claims that he and the father are one.
if there is any misunderstanding about what he meant the inspired writer later clears it up calling him equal with God
1 Timothy 3:16, King James Version And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Rpmans 9:5
here is a last question. if only God is good and jesus is not God, IN WHAT WAY WAS JESUS NOT GOOD?
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

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 Message 68 by hERICtic, posted 03-01-2010 8:34 PM hERICtic has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 70 of 492 (548859)
03-02-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dawn Bertot
03-02-2010 1:47 AM


Re: Perfect sacrifice
Hi EMA
EMA writes:
Chist (who Paul states in no uncertain terms is EQUAL WITH GOD) as Paul states, humbled himself and took on the form of a servant and became obedient, even unto death.
im just curious what your bible reads in this verse
the verse in my bible most certainly does not have Paul saying Jesus is Equal with God, rather he says that Jesus did not consider himself to be equal to God.
Philipians 2:5-11 writes:
5Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
7No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.
8More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.
9For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
10so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,
11and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 71 of 492 (548861)
03-02-2010 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Buzsaw
02-28-2010 11:54 AM


Re: Corroborating Messianic Prophecies
Buzsaw writes:
This is a good example of why you shouldn't be spoon fed from your central source of doctrine. JWs have the same problem as the secularists on this board relative to your rejection of a literal return of Jesus.
Remember that all important word, corroboration.
a literal return of Jesus makes absolutely no sense in terms of who Jesus is and what he will soon be doing.
the prophet daniel spoke of the Messiah/Jesus as a powerful spirit who will take action against Gods enemies. How could he possibly do that from a small scrap of land anywhere on this earth.
How will standing on a tiny dot in the sand amount to him destroying Satan the Devil and all the worlds governments? No, the action he will soon take cannot possibly be achieved by stationing himself in Jerusalem in the flesh...he will need much more then physical strength to accomplish what is to come.

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Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 72 of 492 (548881)
03-02-2010 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Peg
03-01-2010 4:19 PM


Re: Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
never do we see a statement that says 'God was produced' or 'God was created'
He is eternal and had no beginning
but in this proverb, the one being spoken of is said to have a beginning. We can go over and over this point, but no matter how you look at it, this person had a beginning, this person 'came to be beside God as a master worker'
Consider the word usage, he or it was there from everlasting
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
according to verse 23 of chapter 8. verse 23 and 24 they make it clear that this thing (person or wisdom) was FROM EVERLASTING. it being brought forth is USAGE, it being made known to creation itself, not that it was created
Again the higher language in this case EVERLASTING trumps brought forth. It can't be both and the same as regards its ACTUAL existence.
Yes Christ was created (born) as a man, but his time was from everlasting
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

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 Message 67 by Peg, posted 03-01-2010 4:19 PM Peg has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 73 of 492 (548978)
03-02-2010 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Dawn Bertot
03-02-2010 9:15 AM


Re: Reading between the lines? Or reading into the text?
EMA writes:
Yes Christ was created (born) as a man, but his time was from everlasting
proverbs shows that there are two beings being spoken of...the one speaking and the one who is being spoken about..." When HE prepared the earth, I was there"
27When HE prepared the heavens I was there; when HE decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30then I came to be beside him as a master worker,
The one speaking is not speaking about himself alone....who is the other one he mentions?

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 74 of 492 (548979)
03-03-2010 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Peg
02-27-2010 11:57 PM


Re: Revelation 22:13
quote:
quote:
Why do you say that the context indicates this is "God Jehovah who is speaking, not Jesus?" As you admit, elsewhere in the book Jesus is identified as the one who is "coming quickly" or "coming soon"
Because only God Almighty is called the 'alpha and omega' which is why the NWT has used the name of God in this verse. jesus has never been called by that term so it would be illogical to assume that it must be speaking about Jesus.
Ah, circular reasoning! You start by assuming that Jesus is not God, in which case this can't be speaking of Jesus, because it would be addressing Him as God. This is not the way to find truth!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Peg, posted 02-27-2010 11:57 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Peg, posted 03-03-2010 12:42 AM kbertsche has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 75 of 492 (548981)
03-03-2010 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by kbertsche
03-03-2010 12:18 AM


Re: Revelation 22:13
kbertsche writes:
Ah, circular reasoning! You start by assuming that Jesus is not God, in which case this can't be speaking of Jesus, because it would be addressing Him as God. This is not the way to find truth!
so what you are saying is that i should start by assuming that Jesus IS God and then i will find truth?
and how is that NOT circular reasoning?
Have you ever wondered why the tetragrammaton existed at all?

This message is a reply to:
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